To Vaccinate or Not?
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Forum Name: First baby? Second or more?
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Topic: To Vaccinate or Not?
Posted By: sunnyhoney
Subject: To Vaccinate or Not?
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:04pm
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Did you vaccinate your baby/babies or not? Why?
What about the meningiccocal vaccination...I'm a bit worried about all the stories of bad reactions I've heard about. What are your thoughts? ------------- Mum to: Joy Emily 1.05am 27/09/07 7lb 3oz Austin Paul 12.47pm 18/04/10 10lb 8oz |
Replies:
Posted By: meow
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:08pm
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Yes, we vaccinated. But I did delay some of them, and didn't give the meningitis ones with the other vaccines, like they try to do now. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Brenna
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:09pm
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Brenna reacted to her 1st 2 rounds of immz (6 weeks and 3 months) and those both included the menzB one. I'm not sure if it was that or the others that made her react and even though it was awful and scary, I'd do it again as I think the illnesses are so bad (some can be deadly) that it was worth it. The only difference I think I might do is not rush into getting it done bang on 6 weeks -------------  My beautiful 2 girls...nearly 4 and 13 months
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Posted By: james
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:22pm
yep i did well relly my mum did as i cried in the coner (i,m a wimp) and james was a little sore the next day but i would do it again its better then him getting sick from some of these horrable things ------------- <a href="http://lilypie.com"><img src="http://b4.lilypie.com/nLJ5p13.png" alt="Lilypie 4th Birthday Ticker" border="0" /></a> |
Posted By: Mazzy
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:22pm
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We got all the immunisations done on schedule. I felt so bad when DD had three injections in one go, but we didn't have any reactions really. She had a bit of a temp for the first two rounds, then has been pretty good (if a little grumpy - understandable) for the others.
Several of my friends have delayed the MenzB ones for their kids, and all has gone fine for them too. I felt a little unsure about the immunisations and confused as what to do, but DH was adamant and as he was so definite about doing it I decided to trust him and go with it. We talked to both the practice nurse and doctor at our family GP office and asked a lot of questions. I have to admit to not researching it HEAPS, I was overwhelmed by all the different arguements and sources of information. But I am happy with the decision we made. ------------- Mum to two gorgeous girls! |
Posted By: Anna
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:29pm
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We didn't do any of them on schedule and didn't get any of the MenzB...
It's all a personal decision. Do some reading and go with what you feel. ------------- Anna http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:32pm
| We had the 2 standard ones done. Haven't done menzb yet and we still aren't sure about it. I'm very glad that I hadn't got it done though as Daniel reacts very badly to the hib-hepb one.. we have to sit around at the docs for 45mins when he gets them done. But at least he doesn't have to deal with menzb as well. |
Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:32pm
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I was given so much research etc when I had Hannah (my mum is anti) that I got overwhelmed and we eventually decided to immunise her when she was 10mos. I found that most of the research we had was quite old and also that our doctor was happy to talk through any of our concerns. I decided to trust him really.
Briona was very unsettled as a baby so I delayed hers as well, cause I didn't want unsettled+unsettled lol. Later we would find out that she had silent reflux. So we started her at 5mos. Kryssi was our first baby to be on schedule lol and by this point MenzB had been introduced. I must admit to being sceptical of MenzB because it still seems so 'new'. So none of our girls have had MenzB but they are up to date with all the others. ------------- |
Posted By: MelanieAndBree
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 8:59pm
Briahna got hers when she was exactly 6 weeks. She was fine. She was just a wee bit more sleepy than usual and slept longer which i didnt really mind  ------------- Melanie. Mum to Briahna Robyn, 3yrs |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 9:01pm
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We have decided not to immunise and we also didn't allow him to have the Vit K injection. We did a lot of research and looked at the arguments on both sides. We are confident that we have made the right decision and our personal believe is that the immunisation are damaging and do not actually prevent the diseases.
That statement is probably going to cause some uproar but it is based on the extensive research that we did. My gp was happy for us not to immunise, but if you choose not to they have to tell the government you are not going ahead with it and why and apparently it can cause problems with some childcare which I don't get cos if the immunisations work surely other kids couldn't catch anything off my kid, but I digress, legally they cannot refuse to take your child if not immunised. There is a support group for parent who don't immunise but I cannot remember the name of them. I can find out for you if you do decide not to go ahead or if you want more info. Really it is a very personal choice and I do not want to force my opinions of it on anyone, so I would just say that make sure you research it fully you can only make an informed decision if you look at all the evidence for and against. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: Bombshell
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 9:02pm
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we live in auckland, and south east auckland so there was never any question for us of not vaccinating....we chose to do it and to do it all and on time per schedule....
we had no reactions...just soreness after the second round ones. Had a squeal when she rolled on it...but owuld rather that than meningitis!!!!!!! ive seen literature on both - and been involved in a court case where both sides well presented...which helped me make decision too. |
Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 9:03pm
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jake was delayed as we weren't in the country - he has a wicked TB scar from japan though - then he got them done at one - he actually saw the nurse that did them in Pak n save and screamed. he hates her. No reaction apart from a swollen site that wasn't painful.
Taine had all onschedule and was fine. didn't even cry during the first two lots. weird kid. I found the heel prick to be nastier |
Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 9:15pm
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We are here. Yes, I read the reserch and my opinion is that the benefits FAR outweigh the risks and,my opinion, once again, the non vacc. kids don't get sick cos most kids are vaccinated. (my opinion, though)
It is totally personal choice and a very "sticky" subject as some people get quite heat up about it. ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 9:15pm
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I did Andrew on the schedule that he had and then the MenZb when it was introduced. Josh however started with normal schedule (without MenZb) and then had the MenZb once he turned 5 months old. My reason for that was not having 3 jabs at one time and he only has to have 3 MenZb jabs. Have a read of things and don't let your practise nurse push you into them if you don't want to have them done. Mine tried to make me get Josh's MenZb done when he was 6 weeks old but I had already made my mind up and read the stuff about it. ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
Posted By: Kels
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 9:38pm
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I think that is key to making a decision about imms as there is alot of info out there about for and against and a lot of it is really baised for both sides and you never realy get the whole picture. Getting the useful unbiased info is the best way to make and informed decision about your baby. Talk to your practice nurse and gp for infor on both sdie and will they be able to give you some info on where to go for this. As I said there is some very biased info out there for for and against. BS you are really lucky you had access to that information. IMO tho I done the whole complete schedule from 6wks but being a practice nurse and seeing one baby with whooping cough and another with suspected meningitis it wasnt a hard decision to make. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
Busy mum to Miss 15yrs, Miss 10yrs and Master 4yrs |
Bombshell wrote:Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 10:00pm
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GPs get paid for each child immunised, I would question how impartial they are. But definately do look at both sides just try to steer clear of government info it is written by the pharmaceutical companies and is propoganda not research. Also when you look at stats you need to know what they are based on. Some pharmacuetical companies will quote stats of children that have died from a certain illness, i.e measles, but they don't tell you how many of those deaths were children who had a) been immunised b) had other immune affecting illnesses.
I would also look at research from more than one country, we looked at NZ, OZ the US, Canada, the UK, European and Japanese research. And just as you should steer clear or government/pharmacuetical research you should also steer clear of looking at the really pro anti-immunisation people as you get the opposite problem that they use the stats to bend it all the other way. Oh and I don't think that Spencer won't get ill (I hope he won't but it is a risk we have accounted for) I was just saying that if he is ill he wouldn't be able to pass on to an immunised child, so I don't understand why some childcare centres have a problem with taking a child who isn't immunised. I also don't see what business it is of the governments whether we choose to immunise our child or not, but they make a song and dance about it at the doctors at all his visits telling me they have to record that we are not doing it and why. -------------
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Posted By: Kels
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 10:08pm
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Not all practice nurses are pushy tho, nice to find one who is there to support and inform with the most current and accurate information. I believed and worked as a practice nurse to support an informed decision for the health and welling of patients and their families. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
Busy mum to Miss 15yrs, Miss 10yrs and Master 4yrs |
Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 10:10pm
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Child care centres shouldn't make any issue over whether a child is immunised or not. They do however request to see the imms certificate in the back of your Well Child book. At one preschool we went to I asked them why that was (I felt checked up on lol!) and it's so that they can record who is and isn't immunised for whatever, so that if there is an outbreak they will send the un-immunised kids home immediately.
At our docs they have to ask us every time whether we will do MenzB or not but they have never asked us or recorded why - just yes/no. ------------- |
Posted By: Kels
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 10:19pm
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Doctors also get paid for each and everytime a sick baby comes in the door and the funding for immunsations wouldnt even be worth the amount they get for a sick bubba coming in so I assure you they would def not push imms for funding purposes as they dont with smoking cessation and smear test which GP get funded for per person along woth a whole range of other well people/family services ------------- http://lilypie.com">
Busy mum to Miss 15yrs, Miss 10yrs and Master 4yrs |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 04 November 2007 at 11:09pm
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sunnyhoney a very sticky and sometimes touchy subject.
I believe that you have to do your own research and get both sides of the story so that you can make a properly informed choice. busymum is right in that if there is an outbreak then any non- immunised child will be sent home first and they cant discriminate based on immunisations. You have to be happy with your choice and be doing it for the right reasons, not just cause it is the done thing or because you dont like needles or whatever... good luck with your decision. |
Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 10:35am
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I looked into it and found it really overwhelming and most of the research incredibley bias to either side, which makes it really hard to make an informed choice. Its really tough and only a choice that you and your partner can make. We went with the whole 'would rather risk a reaction than the disease' so both our girls are up to date.
------------- Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3 
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Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 10:56am
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sorry to lurk just a very interesting topic i wanted to research before bubs is born...GandT and busymum are right about the immunisations..
good childcare centres don't discriminate..just be aware if there is say a chickenpox epidemic your child will be sent home first and have to stay there until it is over..(and during my time as supervisor didn't meet any child who wasn't but we had a sheet we had to tick off to say who was and wasn't immunised against what.. though there were a several parents who decided to not have or delay the meningitis one.. ) as far as our research goes we will be getting them done..having seen how bad an illness such as whooping cough can get without immunisations we decided we would rather protect him as best we can from getting a major form of an illness..but of course it's a personal decision....most of the research i read against was about getting autism from some vaccines(don't start me on that:) ) but i will continue to read current research as it's an important topic to stay up to date with i think. ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Bombshell
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 10:57am
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yeah there are some schools - esp in south auckland that will exclude non vaccinated kids also. DC required us to present the vax pages as proof before enrolling and that is a positive in my book as means no unvax kids are enrolled.
You might be surpised at what schools in which locations require vaccinations...def check over a year ahead before enrolling..... |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 11:02am
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yes sorry i didn't say that i was in a preschool.. we have heard of problems at schools here too..though as everyone was vaccinated at the preschool our kids were fine..
if too many people don't vaccinate then these diseases may come back worse and seriously affect more children.. i think that's their basis for it(makes sense ).. and I don't know how they can legally exclude but they seem to be able to...? ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: MissCandice
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 11:09am
I got kylah immunised because if i didnt, and she got memingitis or whooping cough o something else that the jabs would have prevented i would never live with myself.. she was grizzly throughout the day but overall she was ok. I think the worst is watching them do it..  ------------- ~ Mummy to a beautiful girl ~ |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 11:14am
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yes I've heard that's the worst bit:( I'm not looking forward to it..it doesn't stop them getting it..well it can..but it gives them a less serious dose if they do get it as they already have antibodies.. ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Tiff
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 11:18am
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I haven't made an official decision one way or another but I do know that I've had the mumps 3 times (on both sides), once before my MMR and twice after!! And that is suppoosed to be one you only get once! ------------- http://lilypie.com">  
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 11:20am
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What is the problem with having unvax kids at the school? If the vaccinations are effective it shouldn't affect your child if my unvaccinated child attends.
If you decide not to vaccinate there is a support network in NZ that helps with dealing with these kinds of attitudes, its unfortunate that it happens and would be something you would have to be willing to deal with if you decided not to vaccinate. You do not need to rush your decision and it is not necessary to start the vaccines at 6 weeks, my understanding is that you just have to keep the correct amount of time between each jab, but you could push them all out by 2 weeks etc if you need more time to decide. -------------
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Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 11:32am
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Vaccinations don't 100% protect your child, because it depends on strains of diseases going around etc. plus often they will just offer protection from getting the symptoms as seriously (for example your child might still get the disease and be sick, but less likely to die from the illness or have severe problems).
I will definitely be getting my child immunised based on what I was taught in our reproductive & developmental anatomy and physiology papers. These diseases are pretty awful and I would rather put up with the risk of getting a few little side effects in the meantime if it offers any form of protection. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 12:12pm
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We didn't not immunise because of a few little side affects, there can be devastating problems from them.
I'm gonna stop looking at this thread, but as the only person who is on the other side, so to speak. My advice to you would be this.... Ask for a list of the ingredients in the jabs, or ask for the manufacturers details and look it up on their website if your gp claims to not have a list. Look at what happens in American States where immunisation is mandatory, look at their stats on vaccine injury and look at the amount of money they have to pay out in compensation to the families and the ratio of families that have vaccine injured children. Look at the Japanese research into SIDs and how they have raised the age that they start immunisations Look at the latest Canadian research into Autism and the MMR jab. (although bear in mind it is only one study and is not conclusive). The government information is aimed at scaring parents into getting the jabs done, it is not impartial it will have lots of scary stats but does not explain them. And by that I mean that they don't tell you if the children had other illnesses and they also don't tell you whether the children were immunised or not. There is at least one GP in Christchurch and I am sure there are others around that will do individual jabs etc if you do not want to strictly follow the government scheme. -------------
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Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 12:21pm
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What cuppatea is saying above is true, however the research that we analysed in the anatomy & physiology department all led us to the conclusion that the risks of any of those things happening is a WHOLE lot less than the risk of contracting one of the immunisable diseases causing similar/worse problems. None of the research we looked at was government related, it was all international research that was independent of pharmaceutical companies and governments... and we looked a a variety of research that provided both pros and cons of vaccinating. Based on that, I (personally) have chosen to immunise as it makes mathematical sense... but there are risks both ways.
It's a very controversial subject, but you can feel better that you decided to make an informed decision, whatever decision you choose to make! ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 12:51pm
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What is the problem with having unvax kids at the school? If the vaccinations are effective it shouldn't affect your child if my unvaccinated child attends. (cuppatea)
the problem is if someone gets the virus.then the unvac kids get it a lot worse, and if there are too many then they pass through schools etc more seriously.. personally i dont think they should be able to be excluded though.. yep you can have them whenever as long as they are correctly spaced..and a lot of people do.. cuppatea...we aren't personally saying anything against you..it's totally your right as a parent to decide what you want to do..and i respect that!!:) you are totally right that a lot of the govt stuff is (in my opinion) designed to scare parents into immunising...there doesn't seem to be a lot of balanced info out there!!! as janey said any informed decision is a good one!!:) for or against.. ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 1:23pm
| we are immunised here my mum was a bit suss on it but from doing a few nursing papers I knew I wanted my kids done. I know there is a risk of things happening but IMO there is a bigger risk of my kids getting very sick from those diseases. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 1:40pm
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Hey Kawww I didn't think anyone was having a go at me was just getting a bit wound up about some of the random statements being made.
Like Janey77 said any informed decision is a good decision. I personally just think it is a shame that a lot of parents immunise without looking into it first and I also think it is a shame that people think it is right to exclude non immunised children, when realistically if you believe the immunisations work it shouldn't effect your child as they have there protection against fully getting the disease. I think it is great that so many people on here have looked into it. -------------
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 1:40pm
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i think that delaying the imms is also a good option to look into and maybe even giving them separately.
I am pretty sure that the reason that daycares and schools ask for proof is the same as any publicly funded kindy and not so that they can turn you away, but rather they are aware of the kids to send home if an outbreak occurs. So there may be kids at the daycare or kindy who havent been immunised but you as a parent would not know as it would be confidential info anyway. I have chosen to not give my kids the Menzb vaccine but because of this i am very aware of symptoms and that i believe is an advantage. being immunised doesnt mean you wont get it - as has been evidenced not just in the case of the menzb - so dropping your guard is not a good thing. |
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 1:53pm
I have one of those Lizzle, I think everyone who has had a TB vacination does. DF and I differ on immunisation, as he got vacinnated against MMR and still ended up getting the measles, Vacinaiton is not a guarantee that you wont get the disease. I feel its my responsiblity as a parent to limit their exposure to disease, I would hate to be the 1 in 1000 parent whose child got whooping cough cause I decided not to vacinate. I have friends who live in South Auckland and everyone got immunised with MenzB they were one of the first areas to recieve, MenzB is a disease with a 25 year life cycle and the strain we have here in NZ is particularly virilent, I would immunise my child for MenzB before they went to school. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">   [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: Red
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:02pm
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Gosh this is a great thread, I don't have any kiddies yet but I really don't think I like the idea of immunising them either, I have a client who never immunised her kids and they are the healthiest kids ever, there are other homeopathic alternatives as well which is worth looking into. It does worry me when I read the threads on here about how many bubbies have nasty reactions. Surely that is not a good thing?
I had a bit of an argument with a friend of mine who is a nurse and does alot of immunisations , and she was saying about all the research etc that shows that they have not effect ra ra ra, but you really need to look at who has actually done this research, of cos course the pharmaceutical companies are going to be pro immunisations! |
Posted By: mum2paris
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:17pm
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Our girls are immunised, we did however delay the Menzb ones so that they were given separately as i did not like the idea of 3 needles at once.
I clearly remember my nephew having whooping cough about 12 years ago, he got it just after he was born as a nurse working in the postnatal ward at that time had it unknowingly and passed it on to a few babies. It was so horrible seeing him a tiny baby having so many probs, i clearly remember his white of his eyes being blood-red from the pressure of coughing and watching him gasp for breath Paris did pick up whooping cough when she was 15 mths,there was a bit of a spell where alot of people had it around palmy, only a mild dose of it but we didn't know either until after the fact, just thought it was her asthma playing up until we put together all the other symptoms and realised they were distinctly different - went to docs with list's and dates and he put 2 and 2 together. - during that time she had a rather nasty reaction to her imms in the side where the pertusis one had been done - probably because she already had it on board and had made her own mega antibodies from exposure, she woke the day after with a black, hardened, caved-in part of her leg which she would not walk on. Still despite this, I am still on track to get her immunised in Feb for her pre-school ones as the reaction to the last ones was caused by other factors being involved. I do see how some schools in lower socioeconomic areas would really need to make sure all kids are immunised since they have so many other risk factors for encouraging spread of diseases etc like the ones we immunise against such as poor health anyway and overcrowded living conditions as well as high numbers of at-risk groups etc. I was born in south auckland and was giving the BCG - (TB) vaccine at 3 days of age. I have read a fair few interesting things on different vaccines and found the one about autism interesting, it's hard to tie the two together as autism disorders usually begin to present themselves around the age that the vaccines are done, this doesn't neccisarily mean they are tied in together. There are a million billion kids that have had the jab that are not autistic - the evidence tying to two is quite cirumstantial really. It really is a personal choice, but one that we chose to go with. ------------- Janine and her 2 cool chicks, Paris & Ayja 
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:22pm
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The website that I was trying to remember.
www.ias.org.nz -------------
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Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:24pm
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I am pretty sure that the reason that daycares and schools ask for proof is the same as any publicly funded kindy and not so that they can turn you away, but rather they are aware of the kids to send home if an outbreak occurs. So there may be kids at the daycare or kindy who havent been immunised but you as a parent would not know as it would be confidential info anyway. (gandt) that's exactly the reason we are given as teachers. You are totally right.
On the American board they are having a go at me saying i don't see why they are forced to get the flu shot...and man some of them are very uninformed making random statements everywhere which is a bit of a worry...like 'flu kills people in the US you know' (as if it doesn't here !! I think they think NZ a third world country..hehehe... I've stated my case on it and left it at that ..so different...they started to talk about vaccinations but it ended up a bit nasty:( at least we can have a civil discussion!:) ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Mazzy
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:45pm
ok feeling a little stink now for admitting to not doing heaps of research Honest question - HOW do you find the unbiased research? Is there actually any out there? I was going to add to my original post that with this next baby we are probably going to immunise mostly on schedule but delay the MenzB ones so that we only do three shots instead of the four. ------------- Mum to two gorgeous girls! |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:58pm
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Yes, it is difficult to find but you have to check who has funded the research. It is normally written somewhere in the paper who it was funded by, even if it is only in the small print. It tends to be impartial if funded solely by the government, and a lot of stuff is discovered when they are looking for something else. I.e in Brazil they accidently found that the MMR jab caused an increase in a certain type of meningitis (sp?) even though they were actually just researching the effectiveness of herd immunisation.
-------------
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Posted By: Red
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 2:58pm
| Thanks for posting that webpage cuppatea looks like they have lots of interesting stuff on there, did you read that book on there "Investigate before you vacinate"? |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 05 November 2007 at 3:06pm
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No I didn't. I did read another book though, I can't remember what it was called though, it had been written by an australian chiropractor and had tons of really interesting stuff in it. It also had their story as they had not immunised any of their children and their 5 week old baby caught whooping cough off one of their older children, and it was all very scary for them for a while, so was quite a balanced argument as they had been through what happens if you don't immunise themselves. -------------
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Posted By: Katherine
Date Posted: 06 November 2007 at 9:17am
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Sunnyhoney, the Immunisation Advisory Centre, which is run through The University of Auckland, has a free advisory service that will answer all of your questions and can point you in the right direction regarding vaccinations. They have excellent online resources, as well as a frequently asked questions section that addresses common concerns that parents have about immunisations. Their website is http://www.immune.org.nz - www.immune.org.nz and their toll-free number is 0800 IMMUNE (0800 466 863). |
Posted By: sunnyhoney
Date Posted: 06 November 2007 at 2:41pm
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Thanks Katherine, we'll check it out.
Thanks also to everyone else who is putting their two cents worth into the discussion, it's quite interesting reading all your replies. ------------- Mum to: Joy Emily 1.05am 27/09/07 7lb 3oz Austin Paul 12.47pm 18/04/10 10lb 8oz |