maori in NZ
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Topic: maori in NZ
Posted By: lizzle
Subject: maori in NZ
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:01pm
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i had a really weird comment in class today.
background. i am pakeha but grew up in Taumarunui - high percentage of maori- grew up going to maraes, heaps of maori friends, i speak a wee bit. i thought everyone was like me. DH is maori as are the kids. In class we were reading Patricia Grace "it used to be green once" - bascially about a mum who is really "shaming" her kids - by being just a loving mum. they win money and they don't change but the kids do. very basic outline peoples. Anyway, the kids were BUTCHERING the maori pronunciation (seriously "hurry my"). i said "you need to go and see Mr. N about having maori lessons" and they, as a class, said "what's the point?" me:"we are new Zealanders and Maori is an important part of who we are as kiwis" class:"they dont speak english properly so why should we learn their language that isn't even spoken anymore" me:" because it is about respecting another culture, that as I said, is an important part of who we are" class:"not who I am. None of my friends are maori, it's stupid. and anyway, this story is stupid" me:"it's a neatstory" class:"pretty unrealistic. maoris wouldn't win the money, they would just nick it" Me:sdgfkjhfgkjhasdflgkjhsd - but as politely as possible. i am dumbfounded that a LOT of kids could have that attitude in NZ. am i the only one who feels that maori is important? and that we should all pronounce the lnaguage properlyand not think it's cool not to? |
Replies:
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:07pm
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Wow! That IS sheltered! I''d expect that from Pakeha of my Dad's generation, but not today's kids!
Even Dad is getting PC in his old age, I never thought I'd see the day when he would embrace my kids Maori heritage, but he has made a huge effort to learn the correct pronunciation of Te Irirangi Marama just for Maya. -------------  Maya Grace (28/02/03)
 (02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:13pm
 I think alot of PEOPLE have this attitude in NZ- my In Laws being a prime example. These kids are only saying what they hear at home and see in society as a whole.
I think its sad that if we lose the Maori culture then it is gone forever- I just can't see how we can avoid it when people associate the negative things that some people with Maori in them 'do' with the native culture of our country. Really they are 2 very separate things. ------------- Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3 
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Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:17pm
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Growing up I had the same attitude as the kids. At my school the maoris (man that sounds really bad but you get what I mean) had their own form class and did their own thing, the rest of the school didn't really do much and the maori kids were kinda scary.
Ben has a tiny bit of Maori in him and I feel its really important for the kids to acknowledge that tiny part. To be honest I have no real 'culture' and I love Maori culture so I've kind of done a few wee things of my own to acknowledge it. I'm even planning on learning the language (I used to know quite a bit at primary age). So what i'm saying is there is hope for the kids. I know when theres not a lot of Maori around you it can seem it bit silly how you have to listen to the language when rarely anyone speaks it. Its the kind of thing that comes with age, you realise theres more to the world than just the people you know. However I do think its important to keep it alive in school I'd even go so far as to say it would be nice if they made a Maori history/language class compulsary. Whether you like it or not its the history of New Zealand and is important to our future. |
Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:22pm
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It irks me ( irks , now theres a cool word) when people pronounce some words deliberately wrong because the it might sound "rude " eg proper pronounciation of whakapapa for eg.
i believe a maori word should be spoken the maori way (that goes for all languages actually ) |
Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:25pm
| Ooo me too Kelly theres a wee girl at playcentre call Aroha, most of the mums call her A-row-ha gosh it annoys me especially since its her name. |
Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:36pm
 That is shocking. It makes me so angry that they reacted that way!!
I'm not Maori, in fact I'm as (physically) white as you can get, but I think the Maori culture is such an important part of being a NZer. As a teacher, I emphasise mainly the importance of respecting all cultures, and on pronunciating Maori correctly. Last year I taught in a high decile predominately white school, and we had many lessons on how to pronounce NZ place names correctly. I was *so* proud when one of my kids told me she was going on holiday to Taupo and actually pronounced it correctly!! These kids had no idea at first. Not cos they didn't care (well, maybe they didn't but I was passionate about it and they were young enough that they want to please their teacher), but cos their parents were ignorant about that sort of thing. I really really hate it when I watch/listen to news and they pronounce NZ place names incorrectly. My DH is part Maori (just a little bit) and his family have many really close family friends who are Maori - aunties and uncles, but not blood if you know what I mean. One of them is Harry's koro and they have such a lovely relationship. Harry's middle name Tikihana, is after a family friend of DHs who passed away a few years ago (it was his middle name). My point is.... my boy is a typical lil paheka boy with red hair, but Maori is part of his heritage and I actually consider it part of mine too. As New Zealanders, its a part of who we are, we are tied to our country and our land. I just wish there was something we could do to change the attitude of these kids who have no idea. ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:39pm
The lady I used to work with was like that, we had a patient called Aroha (which, said properly is a lovely name,with a lovely meaning)and she would pronounce it Arowha , and if she was unsure ,all she had to do was ask how to pronounce it |
RachandJack wrote:Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:49pm
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My personal opinion is that NZ schools need to have more language options. That doesn't mean that kids should have to learn a specific language, or how to pronounce it even. You wouldn't be half as annoyed if they were butchering german or japanese pronounciation, would you? If they're not exposed to maori, then it's just not going to happen.
I don't like maori as a language, it's just not *me* I do like other languages more, german, russian, latin etc. On the other hand, I've always been very good with pronounciation, especially maori, so never ran into problems myself. Maori is a dead language... it's not going to be useful outside of specific maori culture, and those of us who aren't maori and don't intend to work in it, it's probably one of the most useless languages you can learn! (next to maybe latin, but I'm a history buff so  ) Purely from a sensible point of view, there's no reason they should have to learn it. They would be better off learning japanese/chinese for job oportunities/etc.
ETA: I have great reasons why I could be racist towards maoris if I wanted to, I've been bullied by a MUCH greater majority of maori's than other races in my time, and mostly over rumours which weren't true, or something like they didn't like the colour of my hair dye! (bright red was a target... didn't have that for long) I've had maori guys try to beat me up, and even had one throw a rock at my head. I have never ever had a male of another race do anything like that, females still rarer. BUT I am not racist, that's not who I am, and I have met a few nice maoris. I am also not about to bend over backwards to please them and their culture over others. -------------  
 
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:00pm
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I am Aussie and DH is Saffa and we are both quite keen for our Kiwi kids (when they finally arrive) to embrace all parts of Kiwi culture.
I probably butcher the Maori language everyday (apparently I dont even pronounce maori right) but I try and ask how I should say it. To me its just common decency. It irrates me when Aussies mispronounce aboriginal place names or use the english pronunciation of Italian words etc. Its not hard to ask the question... which is what I am now going to do. How do you pronounce Aroha? -------------   
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Posted By: kabe
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:01pm
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Maori is one of our official languages and is widely used. It is a beautiful language and one we hope our daughter learns. ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:02pm
Yeah actually I think if we're gonna speak German or Japanese we should try to pronounce it correctly. You're right, I wouldn't be as annoyed as I would be about Maori being pronounced incorrectly, but that's because we don't live in Germany or Japan. We live in New Zealand and Maori is one of the official lanugages of our country. And you raise a very good point - if they're not exposed to Maori, it's not gonna happen! Which is why I believe it's so important kids are exposed to it.
Eeek!! Hold up! I'm sure many people would disagree that Maori is a dead language - it is very much alive to many people and has such a deep cultural meaning. Personally, I'm not talking about everyone being fluent in Maori - I don't think that's realistic, and you're right, there are other languages that will get used more. BUT I think it is *extremely* important that New Zealanders make the effort to pronounce te reo and placenames correctly. It's just a respect thing. ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:04pm
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I would consider it dead because it is solely used (as in only speak maori) by very few, if any... I didn't mean to offend people with that definition. -------------
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Posted By: .Mel
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:06pm
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I'm gobsmacked, I think I'll come back when I've calmed down. ------------- Mr Mellow (16) Miss Attitude (8) Destructa Kid (3) 
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Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:09pm
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I am not part of maori culture, but I am a new zealander... there is a difference, though alot of things overlap sometimes, I am happy for maori to have their culture, but I don't think it should be forced on others, like I don't believe religion or other things should be. As I said, I did not mean to offend, please don't take it that way. -------------
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Posted By: kabe
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:10pm
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Mel, I had to pause and take a deep breath too.. ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:11pm
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....me too.... ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:14pm
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Well can you point out what you think I have said wrong? I'm pretty sure you're talking about my post... I hope it is not the dead language comment, as I explained my reasoning for that, and I realise it's probably not the proper wording, but I can't think of the right word. I also said one of my favourite languages IS a dead language, I don't think of the term in a negative way. -------------
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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:21pm
dont worry , heaps of words i mispronounce too or rather spell them wrong, like Ngarimu which is pronounced Nah DImu (but quicker) Aroha is Arrdoha (kinda , that was the best way i could think to spell it , kinda with a d sound, it means love) It may not be very commonly used,but i think its a beautiful language, and for that alone should still be used anyone remember Shannon and Tama's daughter on SS? her name was Rangimarie , when i first saw that ,i was like "thats not very nice, Rungi Maarreee," (go my ignorant white girl speak ) then they said it on ss Rangi mard eee a, beautiful ! |
Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:21pm
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I am sorry for speaking my mind, I didn't realise this post was only for people who agree 100% with the starting viewpoint... it seems I was mistaken. I don't mean people should be disrespectful of any culture, but it seems a little rough to judge kids on their progress in something they do not identify with, just like it would be for any language. -------------
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Posted By: .Mel
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:30pm
------------- Mr Mellow (16) Miss Attitude (8) Destructa Kid (3)
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Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:33pm
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Thanks The Kelly I was trying to figure out how to explain that pronunciation!!! And I wasn't getting anywhere!! lol.
And yeah I don't pronounce everything correctly, but I want to and I try because I believe it's an important part of respecting other cultures. Alia, I know you weren't meaning to offend and of course everyone is welcome to their own viewpoint. I think personally I just get disheartened when I realise that there are so many people out there who just aren't fussed about pronouncing Maori correctly. Although reading your post again, I think you're talking more about learning the actual language fluently, whereas I'm focused more on pronouncing things like NZ place names correctly. And making an effort with the Maori words we do say. ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:35pm
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Sometimes in my previous job I wished I could speak maori cos when I had to talk to people, especially on the north island, and they would talk to me about particular places (where sewer and water pump stations are) i normally had to get them to spell them out so I could then search them as I couldn't tell what they were from them saying them.
Obviously part of my down fall would be coming from England so I haven't been brought up around the culture and the language but people are usually forgiving especially when you make the effort to try and get it right. So my point is that is very relevant in new zealand today even if it is for as simple a reason as understanding where someone is talking about. But hey when my brother came to visit he pronounced Dunedin, doon-ee-din. Hahahahaha, I have never let him live that one down and that one isn't even maori. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:46pm
haha ,it took me ages to work out a way to spell it how it would sound I found a few sites that have an audio of how to pronounce the maori words |
Posted By: .Mel
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:50pm
I totally agree with you. ------------- Mr Mellow (16) Miss Attitude (8) Destructa Kid (3)
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Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:04pm
I think why people take so much offence is because comments like this are so offensive! Would you think it was acceptable to go on a Welsh forum and say you don't like their native language?
Again- this is offensive because although it may be your opinion you are telling people who take pride in the Maori culture- who put effort into learning and teaching the language that it is useless! Maori isn't a dead language- but it is in the process of dying because of attitudes like this. The reason why some people with Maori in them don't acknowledge the culture is that often we are made to feel that it is something to be ashamed of. There are numerous negative stereotypes out there about what it means to be maori so often it is easier for people to distance themselves from that part of themselves rather than to embrace it- join those criticising rather than having to defend yourself. I myself am trying to work through this at the moment. Our parents/grandparents were beaten if they spoke our native language in schools- those people raised our generation, as small children they were shown by those in a position of authority that it WAS something to be ashamed of. The children of other ethnicities also grew up seeing this- which would also make them think there was something wrong with it. That kind of thing has a long and far reaching effect on a society- we are still working through the effects as this thread proves! We are the only country in the world that has this culture, its what makes us different, special- if we lose it, then it is gone forever. If people ever learn to get over their prejudice toward the Maori culture then hopefully we can get to a place where we can be proud of what it means for our country. To see our native people succeeding in the world, our language alive and embraced within our day to day lives, and the thing that people now call 'over the top PC' as something to be proud of rather than criticising it as taking things too far. ------------- Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3
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Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:07pm
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Can't remember who was talking about pronunciation, but a good one to remember is when you see ng just think 'sing' its the end sound. Hardest one to get though.
I think everyone's being a bit harsh on Alia. I actually get what she means completely. Correct me if I'm wrong Alia, but I think you mean what's the point in forcing something on people when it's not a language that can be used widely (little old NZ vs the world for example). But I also get what everyone else is saying: that the culture is more important than the language. My DH is part (very, very small part) Maori and refuses to acknowledge the culture which means Jack will not be brought up in except for the waiata I sing him and tikanga I teach him. My BIL is Maori and refuses to acknowledge his culture. So it's not just to do with 'white' people. I've done Maori language and studies during teacher training and it's been great. I can pronounce Maori clearly and know the general aspects of Tikanga Maori (esp for Ngai Tahu). But I also have the view that I'm getting sick of everything being about Maori culture. We seem to acknowledge it more than proportionatly (sp) to everything else. Every news thing to do with kiwis you see the 'dial-a-haka' on it (DH's words). We have many, many Maori and Pasifika friends (being in an army lifestyle) but even they think its ridiculous. I agree that our history and culture as a joint NZ needs to be embraced, but I think it's going too far. I hate the fact that I couldn't get a scholarship at TCol even though I was the 3rd in my year, yet my underachieving Maori friend got one ($10k worth) just because of her race. All she had to do was prove her whakapapa. Geez half of NZ can do that! Anyway, I just had to say this all because I felt that it was getting a bit 'let's gang up on someone if they have a different view from us'. |
Posted By: Mazzy
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:08pm
Rach, you said it all for me - and much better than I would have I think! I was the same growing up as well, really didn't see the value of the Maori language or culture and had the same set up at high school, where the whanau class were seperate from everyone else so it was hard to feel like we were involved or relevant to anything 'Maori', if that makes sense. Your comment about coming of age and realising the value of this beautiful culture is definitely true here. Particularly once I started working - both in Auckland for an advertising agency and in Hamilton in the tertiary sector, I found myself becoming more and more interested and involved in the Maori community and discovered how important that heritage is to all New Zealanders. It's something unique to this country and I have been very lucky to meet some exceptional Maori role models who have made me want to learn the language and make sure my kids never have the same experience I did growing up. By the way, we have 0% Maori in our family - DH is of Irish descent and my family is of Dutch descent! I don't agree that Maori is a dead language - it is used so often in our everyday language (place names, etc.) and there are new developments happening as well. Recently Microsoft joined with the Maori language commission to create a Maori keyboard software application that can be downloaded and used for free, allowing macrons and other parts of the language to be used easily (I hate that every time I've written Maori in this post it doesn't have the macron!). Personally, I'd love to see the print media embrace the language more and print words correctly, using macrons etc. Sorry for the tangent, I didn't realise I was so interested in this! ------------- Mum to two gorgeous girls! |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:18pm
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I appreciate the language and culture a lot more now, and I was brought up around it in school, but now after studying it I know the meanings of what they do etc which is cool.
Lol Mazzy, I hate the no macrons thing either! I have them all shortcut-keyed on my keyboard though for word, but it drives me nuts in forums etc. And writing Maaori just doesn't look right. |
Posted By: Mazzy
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:20pm
Oh, and Alia, I get what you meant - I just don't agree with it on some levels. I do get that Maori can't really be used outside of NZ, but neither can many languages compared to English (Where can you use Italian outside Italy?).  Ialways think of that great ad several years back where a couple were sitting in a cafe in Italy speaking Maori to each other and the cafe owner said in Italian 'what a beautiful language'. It really is and I think more people would realise that if it were more widely spoken.
However, I don't think I would have come around to these conclusions if I had been forced to learn the language, especially in my younger years. I also disagree with the PC brigade taking things too far like some of what Emz said. ------------- Mum to two gorgeous girls! |
Posted By: Mazzy
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:22pm
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Jeez, can you tell I'm breast feeding and bored?
Emz, so glad someone understands my macron pain! Where did you study, if you don't mind me asking? ------------- Mum to two gorgeous girls! |
Posted By: tishy
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 11:42pm
Maori History maybe, but making Maori Language a compulsory class would be a disaster. It would make those same kids in lizzles class resent the language even more. Anyway surely Maori history is already covered in NZ history? When Ireland became a republic, they decided that the best way to revive the language would be to make it compulsory. I learned the Irish/Gaelic for 12 years in school. The most I can speak in it now is An bhfuil cead agam, dul go di an leithris? (Can I go to the toilet?') It's not a practiced language. There are a few pockets of people who speak it and all the signposts have both Irish and English on them. In order to get into University we have to have passed Irish in the Leaving Cert (final exams in secondary school). It's an official language of both Ireland and the EU but in my opinion it's a dying language. TBH the only way to revive it would be to make it illegal!! That doesn't mean I don't recogonise the Irish language as being part of my culture. If I didn't then I wouldn't have named my daughters the names I did. |
Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:47am
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In my primary school maori language/history was compulsory... I thought that was the norm. I know I thoroughly enjoyed it, routinely won most of the memory games/etc in primary, and in intermediate took maori as a language for a term, and didn't do too badly there either. Maori myths and legends I find particularly interesting. I'm not saying it's useless, I'm saying it's not useful to those who are not part of the culture, or directly work with it.
Would you think it was acceptable to go on a Welsh forum and say you don't like their native language? We aren't a maori forum, we are a new zealand forum... and I am here to state what I feel as a new zealander. I am not trying to be offensive, I just think differently than you obviously! keep telling yourself that Maybe if you want people to have a inborn respect for maori culture, you should take it upon yourself to do more in the community - get out there and teach real cultural morals to these kids. If most maori life was what I've seen on marae's then I wouldn't have a problem with it, and it would certainly deserve a bit more than base respect. The only way I will possibly admit I'm racist, is that I don't like the human race very much in general. And you go read all the "news" lately and tell me you don't agree.  -------------
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Posted By: pepsi
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:02am
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I agree with what someone else said about at least trying to pronounce words properly, no matter what language it is in.
I don't think it should be compulsory in schools to learn the Maori language, but should be available to those who want to/their child to learn Maori. I can't remember learning a lot about Maori history in school but I would think it's just as, if not, more important to NZ'ers than learning about American or Irish history (what I do remember).. |
Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:03am
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I said Welsh forum, not a welsh language forum, as in- a forum with people from Wales on it. We are a New Zealand forum, and New Zealands native language is Maori. The 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
I understand you weren't trying to offend- but I think its especially important to point out when people have inadvertently offended so at least they know. It may not change your POV or opinion but at least now you know that those kind of comments can hurt and offend people. ------------- Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3
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Posted By: newmum
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:13am
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I don't know how to say what I want to on here. Aaargh, I wich I was better at writing my opinions...
Basically... As a child of German immigrants, speaking German at home, now raising 2 children in NZ with a German husband and keeping our culture, language and traditions alive I have always felt san affinity for the Maori culture and people. I spent a lot of my childhood and youth on our local Marae and learnt the language, I was fluent by the time I left Teachers College but am a bit rusty these days I think that NZers should be so proud to have such a unique heritage.
I think that people that have no experience with REAL Maori, those that embrace their culture and live it, have such a stereotypical once were warriors view and are just plain scared of the differences as they don't understand the significance and meaning behind every part of even a simple Powhiri. I have taken my husband and children to a Marae, had a Powhiri etc. and we will continue to make this part of our lives. I want my children to be open, respectful people that see there is more to life than our 4 walls. People need to get out and educate themselves before they judge and pass comment. OF COURSE Te Reo and Maori history should be compulsory. I too think that a lot could be done to help wayward teens etc. if they were brought back to Marae and taught the "old ways", I have seen this help time and time again. Maori need to be proud of their culture not made to feel ashamed and labelled worse than the rest of us. Will stop writing now as I have heaps more to say but already realise none of this makes sense  LOL------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:22am
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Mazzy - I studied at The Christchurch College of Education (now part of the Uni of Canterbury). They have one of the best Maori programmes for primary teachers in the country. I found it great, although even then we got it drummed into us and one lecturer constantly told us how we were the inferior race etc etc cos we had come over and taken their land and culture (as if I had a say in it).
Maori language should NOT be compulsory in all schools. There aren't even enough people that can speak it that could make that viable. It is however compulsory to have some form of Te Reo and tikanga Maori to meet treaty obligations, which I think is great (although often loosely interpreted). |
Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:31am
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I haven't read any of the responses to this but here are my views..
In primary school I didn't care much about culture. I was a kid who just wanted to be a kid. Then we had a teacher who had very strong views on maori culture (he was maori). We were made to say maori prayers morning and afternoon, he shoved so much stuff like that down our throats. I refused to say the prayer one day when it was my "turn" and I got in huge trouble for it (I was 11). I wasn't religious so saying a prayer didn't sit right with me. Plus I wasn't in for it being forced. I'm totally against any culture/language being compulsory in schools. It should be an option everywhere where it is a choice if they or their parents want to learn it. Our high school had a marae and people used the maori classes, kapa haka etc as a chance to get out of other classes and go smoke ciggys and weed |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:34am
| I'm the same Stacey - at TCol we had to say prayers and I was really against it, but my culture didn't seem to matter there. |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:42am
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I think sometimes the way people react to the Maori people/Maori culture can be related to what they have been conditioned to and experienced, or their parents have experienced.
(I think this is going to offend and I really don't mean to offend - I apologise in advance if I hash it up!  )
I went to a largely Maori high school, and it was a school in an area where many students had children, funding was directed towards Maori culture over other areas, there was a very Maori oriented mind-set and appreciating Maori culture was big on the agenda. That, I don't have a problem with. I love History, and found Maori history and culture interesting, and quite shocking too. BUT, we were also in a position as 'white kids' where we were criticised and bullied by the Maori kids for not getting language and other things right, for wiggling in our seats after a 3 hour Powhiri because we had no idea what was going on, when during awards ceremonies Maori parents and relatives would break into hakas etc (I completely understand why, but there is manners are a two way street) out of the blue and throw things into disruption and if it wasn't handled well by white teaching staff, parents or kids. In that particular instance, certain things/celebrations can be pre-arranged and appreciated by everyone. Unfortunately too, the really bad stuff that happened at school - teachers being hospitalised, knife fights etc most often involved Maori, and the teen pregnancy situation was dreadful. The Maori Culture teacher also used to beat his wife (the white Home Ec teacher), and who knocked up 3 different student in 1 year before being sent away to study at uni for a year on the School budget. BUT, I also saw many maori leaders in our school work very hard to get past that, and I admire people like Peter Sharples who try to get culture back to what it should be. I think many Maori have also forgotten the basics of their culture, which is dreadfully sad, and I think that it would make a huge difference if it was brought back to life. What I'm trying to say is that I therefore was largely immersed in an environment that was negative towards Maori, but the wrong aspects of it and for the wrong reasons, and it can take time and, again, conditioning, as well as effort to come around to changing your thinking. I think negativity has become so much a part of NZ culture that our kids haven't actually ever known the difference, adn therefore lash out at things that are tangible to them eg. refusing to speak the language properly. Also, just a completely random thought - there's nothing quite like a Maori sense of humour I remember one kid spent 5 years stealing my stuff and then on the last day of 7th form presented the WHOLE LOT back to me in a big bag with a hug.
Again, I apologise if I've offended anyone, I had no intention of doing so, and hopefully I've managed to balance my comments ok. Please, if I've offended, let me try and explain myself. ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:44am
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P.S. I think it's important for everyone to be taught the history of our country, and it doesn't matter which way you shake it, Maori Culture is a significant part of that. What is past shapes us for the future. I love the ad on TV which highlights that. ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: gypsynita
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:52am
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I think the whole point of the post has lost focus a little bit - this isn't a "pakeha vs maori" issue, but rather a matter of respect isn't it? Like others have pointed out, I think the big issue is that kids should be taught to respect other languages/cultures regardless of whether they think it is relevant to their lives. And that goes for Maori, German, or even different religions for that matter.
I'm 100% pakeha, but have always had instilled in me a respect for other cultures. Having said this, I don't feel the need to learn Maori fluently - it's enough for me that the odd word here and there has become part of a bigger Kiwi language amalgamation. I've also been in the position where a young Maori child laughed at me (quite nastily) for pronouncing a street name wrong. I was trying to pronounce it correctly but just didn't quite get it - and of all the countries I've visited I have NEVER had anyone laugh at my attempts to speak their home language - no matter how badly I was doing it - so that made me really angry. Respect for other cultures is something that has to around the board - you can't just expect it from others and not return the favour... ------------- Anita Mum to Cian (Aug 08), Josh (Jun 10) http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 10:02am
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I stand by my original viewpoint, that it's important to make an effort with pronunciation of Maori (and in fact any other language). I don't think learning the language fluently should be complusory at schools, for one I don't know where they're gonna find the teachers to do that! But I do think there should be a greater emphasis in our society as a whole to actually pronounce te reo and place names correctly - or at least try. And recognise that the Maori culture is a huge part of being a New Zealander, like it or not. So you may as well embrace it.
By no means am I an amazing Maori speaker. No way. But I see that it's important to respect the language and to make an effort. A few years ago I went to a te reo night class, and the lady who taught it was soooo lovely and so patient with us. When I was working my way through my shocking pronunciation she quietly helped me and spoke about how she was honoured that we were trying. I do agree that your experience gypsynita totally sucks. No-one should be laughed at, especially not when they're making an effort. Kids are like that though, they don't necessarily consider that the other person is actually trying and don't understand everything behind it all. And I also agree that respect is something that should go two ways. But I'm talking about respect for the culture and the language, not necessarily for everyone who is Maori just simply because they are Maori. Because in all races, Pakeha, Maori, Samoan, Chinese, French etc etc, you're gonna have some "good" people and some "bad" people. Some who bring pride to their culture and others who don't. It's not a race thing, it's a person thing. And yeah getting off tanget from the original language issue but I just felt it needed to be said... ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 10:23am
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This got a bit heated!!
OK here is my two cents worth: I am half Ukrainian and Half Bangali (I know bangali very well and half baked Ukraininan. But I speak Russian). I speak Hindi and English too. My DH is full Indian and speaks only Hindi and English. Our Daughter only speaks English. I feel sad that we are not making an efford to teach her our languages. However she is learning Maori songs and words at kindy and tho we are not Maori I feel happy that she is learning the language. I too ask the teachers how to pronounce and sing some songs so that we can sing it at home. I think there is nothing wrong in learning other languages...I think Its great!! And living in NZ I dont see what harm could come from learning Maori?? Alia mentioned Russian as one of those languages that are useful to learn...well I know the language and truthfully I dont see the use of it outside Russia. My Parents just came back from their Europe tour and while in France they found it very difficult to communicate with ppl as they refuse to speak english even if they know it. May be because they are too proud of their native language and dont see the point of learning English ...hello English is Universal now. BUT they are too proud to change. Fair enough too I say. Hence I think Maori should be kept alive..not to say stop speaking English but keep it alive, be proud of it!! Moari's have been portrait as the "Gang" and "Once were worriors" type....and At 18 when I got to NZ and had no teaching of NZ History...scared the hell out of me. However I then saw movies like Whale Rider and realised how beautiful and mystic the culture actually is. I love languages and I love cultures.... Hope I didnt come out wrong here..I applogise if I did! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 10:31am
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I agree, I don't think Maori language should be compulsory, but correct pronunciation, or at least making an attempt to pronounce the words correctly is important. My French was very rusty when I was in France, but I found my poor French got a much better response from the locals than if I just spoke English even tho they all do speak English.
I absolutely think Maori history should be compulsory in schools, it is New Zealand history and our kids need to know how their nation was shaped. The culture thing is a trickier one. There is a large percentage of the population who will never have a need to know marae protocol as they'll never find themselves in a situation where they need to go onto a marae. For those of us Pakeha who do find ourselves needing to know such protocol, it is an ongoing process that can be learned thru exposure - the more tangi you go to, the more you know what to expect! I do think there is merit in having Maori cultural education for people entering some professions, particularly in the health and education sectors where there is potential for broad contact with people of Maori heritage - they need to be able to respond to these groups in a culturally sensitive manner. I'm not even going to get into the Once Were Warriors debate. Yes, there are pockets of Maori society who exist like this, and yes I've lived in them and experienced it first hand. But the vast majority of Maori people live normal lives just like the rest of us, and there are a fair few Pakeha living in Once Were Warriors type situations so who are we to judge... One thing that does make me angry tho is that Maori people are given greater access to health and education services at a reduced cost than Pakeha. I think that is discriminatory - we're all born here. I'd hate to think my girls got into uni simply coz they were lucky enough to have a Maori dad, I'd far rather they got in on their own merits, and as a result of their own hard work. I understand the need for unobstructed access to health care for Maori given that there are cultural barriers which prevent them from seeking medical treatment, particularly the older generations, but again, a bit discriminatory IMO. (ETA: Just to clarify - I speak/write fluent Maori, I did it as a language option for my undergrad, but I rarely use it these days except when at things like powhiri, tangi...Willie doesn't speak it at all as his parents were from the generation that were punished for speaking Maori, and he is quite bitter about the whole thing. Our girls have no choice, they are gradually picking Maori up from me, Maya understands most simple commands, and even the gremlins know the Maori names for their body parts) ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 10:45am
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Roksana I said russian was a language I liked, not one that was useful Just clarifying. My examples for useful languages (for job opportunities and such) were japanese or chinese. -------------
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Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 11:04am
This always bugged the hell out of me. When I went to uni out of high school I was eligible to apply for 1 scholarship. Had I been Maori there were 5 others that I found that I could have applied for and I think that is totally wrong. |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 11:05am
Unfortunately the risk with any debate is strong opinion in any direction To be honest, this is one of the more interesting topics I've followed in ages!
I like Emma's points in that last post. And especially when you look at where she says Willie doesn't speak Maori - even Maori people themselves have been pushed to leave their culture behind to an extent (I didn't realise this had happened BTW) so it's small wonder that children coming through schools now have the misconception that it's an archaic culture. ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 11:06am
And ... errr ... Maori students need lower grades to pass, and gain acess to courses. That was some years ago though, things may have changed (that info came from a mole in a uni department, so if it's wrong I do apologise) ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: nictoddie
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 11:21am
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Wow!
I think at the end of the day it comes down to respect, my dh is part maori but does not dabble in it if ya know what I mean hehe........... I teach my kids to respect all cultures and I think somewhere along the line alot of people in the world have lost that focus, and the world has become quite racious, very sad. ------------- 
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Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 11:38am
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Alia - My Bad!!
I think Russian is the most hardest as far as pronounciation (sp??) is concerned! I agree Nic re the lost focus! I was also taught to respect others regardless of what race, religion, language etc they come from. I will strongly enforce that on my kids. A bit off topic - at one my jobs I was called a racist who hated white people!! LOL You should have seen their face when they found out my mum is white and I am half white. Some ppl are so naive. Just because I look Indian...he he ha ha...still makes me laugh to this day! ------------- http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 12:53pm
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well I can speak pig latin .......
THAT will serve me well in life i think.... |
Posted By: AliaDawn
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 1:05pm
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LOL Kelly, if only all languages were as easy to learn! -------------
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Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 1:28pm
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I like the thing about respecting all cultures, and that it needs to be returned as well. That's my stance on cultural issues, but I still feel like other cultures are being pushed on me a lot (like white people don't have culture so they need to learn it from somewhere else).
The thing that irks me is yes Maori are native to NZ, I'm not debating that, but today we have so many different cultures but Maori is the only one recognised fully. Out of the 7ish schools I've been on placement at, I always had more Asian or European kids in my class that Maori, yet we were required to teach BIculturally, not MULTIculturally. Which drives me nuts. My sister at the moment is having a wee battle as her DF's family is trying to make them have a bilingual wedding ceremony. Which would be fine if her DF was involved with his culture but he's not at all. Far too pushy. Anyway, I degress, I love the Maori language, I've enjoyed studying it. I love learning about NZ history (don't know why some people say we should learn Maori history? Shouldn't it be NZ history?) and Maori myths and legends. I have purposely learnt all about the South Island so I can teach my kids and also the significance of the areas we frequent on holidays. I think that's important, but I would be doing that regardless of if it was Maori or not. I basically see it as it being a part of our history and who we are (the basic stuff) but I don't see why I need to know/learn things that don't concern or interest me. Just like I don't know things about European culture that don't concern or interest me. I'm not going to put extra effort in just because someone thinks its 'right'. But anyway, each to their own, I would love my DH to embrace his Maori side but its not going to happen and that's fine. |
Posted By: MummyFreckle
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 1:36pm
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I think its already been said, but its all about respect and teaching our children repsect for other cultures (especially in the country that they are growing up in) - whether that be maori, samoan, tongan, chinese....whatever. As we are planning on raising our children in auckland, with all its multi-cultural glory, we want to make sure our children have respect for all those other cultures. Now just to clarify, I dont intend on teaching my children all those languages, but will take the opportunity to expose them to the culture and to teach them about aspects of it (ie the chinese latern festival, dilwali etc). I spent 4 years as a child living in Cyprus, and although we lived on a military base with other english families, my parents were very big on exposing us to the culture of the island. We spent a lot of time with cypriot families, went to weddings, christenings, parties etc. We ate traditional food, learnt the basics of the language, and went to the othodox churches. I am not a NZer by birth, but I am by choice. I have chosen to live here and I believe that part of that choice is exposing myself to both the maori / european history of the country, respecting the culture and at least attempting to pronounce the language correctly. Its about making an effort - even if I dont get it right! There are always going to be good and bad examples of people, regardless of their culture. I was horrendously bullied at high school by a maori girl - because I was english and she used to make some very offensive comments to me about "what the english did" to her people. I completely "get" that the english did some awful things, but she was really nasty to me because of things that previous generations had done (not my ancestors - they never left the UK!!!)...but should I tar her with the same brush as her ancestors too? No - its not right, and its not right to tar present day maori people with the "once were warriors" brush either. There are people who have lives like that in all cultures in NZ. Sorry have gone into a bit of a ramble.....but its all about respect at the end of the day.
------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: arohanui
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 1:46pm
Totally, I think it's a great debate!! Hmm this is so off topic but with all this talk of respect for all cultures (which I agree with 100%), reminds me a comment I heard on ask your aunty. A lady wrote in saying that her (Maori) family was being racist towards her partner, who was Pakeha. One of the ladies on the panel goes "well, first up, Maori can't be racist because we are a minority and racism can only occur from majority groups" what?!?! I thought that was a messed up idea. It's funny, cos I think a lot of our perceptions has to do with what we were exposed to growing up. When we were up north (Daragaville) about a month ago, we were helping a group of six 14 year olds make a short film about youth issues. They'd each written short stories and we turned one of them into a screen play, which they then turned into a film. The main character of this story was a girl who had body image issues because, among other things, she was bullied at school (told she was fat and ugly). When we were discussing who to cast as that character, what race etc, one of the girls was *adamant* that she couldn't be Maori, she must have been Pakeha. When I asked her why, she said "Cos Maori never get bullied... they always stick together.. it's the Pakeha who get bullied", which is how it so obviously is at their school. I also agree Emz about the biculturalism/multiculturalism idea in education... technicially it's all biculturalism, yet my whole philosophy and way of doing things is multicultural, I just ignore what we're told to do (in the politcally correct world) and do what I know is right. In my classroom yeah I focus on Maori language and culture, but other cultures as well. For example, the class I'm teaching in for the rest of the year has Tongans, Samoans, one student from Russia, a couple of Indians, a couple of Maori, Asians, and a couple of Pakeha. To me, that is the real NZ --- but then I know that that is also influenced by how I grew up and the fact that the school I went to had so many different cultures represented. OK totally off topic and a bit of an essay, sorry  ------------- Mama to DS1 (5 years), DS2 (3 years) and... http://alterna-tickers.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: missy_girl
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 2:05pm
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Just want to say that I work my butt off to get A+ for my BScPsych. ------------- Michelle http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 2:19pm
Holy hell - Go you missy_girl! 
(The thing about lower grades was that there were in many courses seats allocated to 'race' eg. out of 100 seats they wanted no more than 80 Pakeha, that 10 seats would be available to Maori, 5 seats to Pacific Islanders kind of thing and so where a Pakeha needed a B Bursary to get into the course, if necessary, a Maori/other student could get into a course with a C+ sort of thing because of numbers. Does that make sense?) ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: kabe
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 2:35pm
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I teach at a university and they don't have the quota system any more. Everyone has to meet the same standards to get in and to complete their degree.
There were valid reasons for introducing this system at the time. ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com">
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Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 2:57pm
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Bloody hell!!!
My two cents. Respect has to be shown for all races. That includes respect for the lanuages of the country. The reason why french people refuse to speak english to people, when they all know it - I believe it is a compulsary subject for them, is that they HATE tourists who expect that everyone speak english. I believe if you are going to a place, you at least need to be seen to make an effort with their lanuage, even a greeting is simple. I agree totally with the poster above me, can't remember who, who said that attitudes come from upbringing. I'm not sure that Maori needs to be a compulsary lanuage at school, but it their does need to be exposure, IE Bilingual signposts (as Maori is the other officaily recognised lanuage here) I do know that all the signs at Jakes preschool have English Maori. Samoan, Tongan, Japanese and a couple of other - even hebrew, I think (lol at a catholic preschool!) to cover all the different cultures at the school. So yeah, respect is the thing, I think, and a bit of an effort. Surely a most people know what Kia Ora means? ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 3:41pm
bummer - cant believe i missed this bun fight!!!! ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Posted By: MummyFreckle
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 3:43pm
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ETA: to fix band england! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: NeoshasMummy
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 3:46pm
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I think I will pass on this one as well girls ------------- https://secure.fertilityfriend.com/home/30c4ec/" rel="nofollow">  Mrs Te Kani ❤️ Neosha 26/5/2007 |
Posted By: jack_&_charli
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:24pm
this is something that really gets my back up as well!! there are alot of things that maori people are eligble for that pakeha aren't and that is soooo wrong!!! it really doesn't do much for the whole 'racial' thing! most of the time, i actually think maori are more racist than others in regards to the language, i hated HAVING to learn maori in school. nothing against the language, i didn't have an interest in any of them. i believe it should be an option, just like the other languages are options it also really annoys me that the kids learn it at daycare.......i don't mind if they mix it up, but before they eat their 'kai' they have a karakia (sp?) and that's fine, but why can't they say some sort of prayer in english as well?? but that's just MY OPINION ------------- http://www.alternatickers.com"> 
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Posted By: Jay_R
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:36pm
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Interesting topic.
Whilst I am a white New Zealander, I am also 1/4 Maori (Nana is Maori and married a Welshman, mum is English/Swedish). I am as white as they come, but I identify strongly with my Te Atiawa roots. DP has Ngai Tahu ancestry, although only about 1/16th or something. I adore the language, always have done, and while I don't really speak the language as such, I know a lot of songs which I am always singing to Joshie. We use words like kihikihi (kiss), haere mai, kai all the time, and he knows lots of body parts by their English and Maori names. I'm pretty sure that even if I was not part Maori I would still use the language where I was able with Joshie. It is an important part of what makes us all New Zealanders, and I think its really sad that there are those out there that feel indifferent or resentful about the people and culture. But, in saying that, we are all entitled to feel the way we feel. Alia - you are very brave for coming on this forum and voicing what were always going to be seen by some as inflammatory opinions. I don't agree. But you were brave nontheless. Oh, and I'm on the Maori Electoral Roll. Something else that some see as completely unnecessary. But I'm not going to get started on that one, cos you'll never shut me up
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Posted By: jack_&_charli
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:46pm
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speaking of the maori electoral roll (kinda)
just wondering why we have a maori rugby team....and the same in some other sports........what would happen if we had a pakeha only rugby team ? aside from the fact there would be hardly any good players  ------------- http://www.alternatickers.com">
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Posted By: Roksana
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:09pm
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Vanessa - Thats interesting re the prayer before meals. I was present many times just before meal time etc at DD's Daycare and I didnt see them doing that......??? I like it that they say come have some Kai....I think its cool!!
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Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:53pm
lol I've had talks with some people about that. It's funny that if anything was ever created to be say "whites only" so many people would be up in arms over it. But that doesn't happen over maori only things. |
Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:39pm
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But pakeha isn't a race. maori is. they have Irish beauty pageants and stuff like that here because being Irish is a race. pakeha is not...neither is "white"
now, a few pages ago someone asked if I would be so annoyed if it was another language - why yes, yes I would. Butchering Japanese especially when we were in Japan irked me also. A lot of the scholarships that Lew got in uni were provided by his iwi, for iwi members. |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:08pm
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I don't even like 'Pakeha' as a term but anyway.....
I personally try to impart what little words I know to my daughter. I see it as an important part of living in NZ and as respectful. I probably don't get the pronunciation correct most of the time but at least I'm making an effort. However when we were at school Maori was compulsory in third form and the teacher was blatantly racist to the white students in the class. The same thing happened to my FIL (White Scotsman) when he decided to go to a community college class and learn the language. These may be isolated events but one has to wonder if some responsibility for the lack of uptake of language lies in these attitudes. -------------  
 
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:13pm
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Well i am coming in late but I know your school Liz (well know of it) and I see why you are disgraged (if that is the right word) with the students. I am an Aussie but I am also a Maori (a very white one), and I know my Maori hertitage (i'm Ngai Tahu with my roots in Kaikoura). I think that Maori history needs to be taught in high schools over history of other countries (well some is important). As for the scholarships, the government doesn't hand them out anymore they are now mostly iwi based. ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:52pm
Yup, and there are other race-based sports teams in NZ, just not at the national level of the Maori All Blacks. New Plymouth used to have an Irish rugby team, and there are lots of ex-pat teams. ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: missy_girl
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:01pm
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I couldn't gain a full scholarship from my iwi, I wasn't smart enough. I have some of my fees paid, but there must be a ton of A+ Ngai Tahu people.
Some food for thought. When I backpacked through Europe, I showed respect to every culture by showing interest in their way of life and by pronouncing words correctly (or I asked for help if I couldn't get my tongue around it). It would be nice for the same thing to happen in NZ. ------------- Michelle http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:02pm
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...I dont see any pig latin teams........
Im sorry , im immature, anyway , what was i going to say ? ah yes, Caitlyn is one eighth maori, but her dad has very little time for his maori heritage ,and its more me that wants to encourage it, its part of her , and i think she should be proud of it . |
Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:11pm
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Im very impressed at your A+ Missy girl , i wish i was smart like that .
I wish id known you when i was at school , i would have got you to help me with assignments
I get annoyed when maori words are blatantly pronounced wrong, i think sometimes its ignorance, but others its a case of cant be bothered . Mind you , it really irks me when people get english terms wrong, eg "The other day i come up the stairs " No you DIDNT you CAME up the stairs (yes , CAME, you came , oh how funny GROW UP !) or " I seen them " did you ? did you really ? or perhaps you SAW them . Meh ! this is my daughter, in the bath embracing her maori side .... 
It shall also be the photo on her 21st invite.....heh heh |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:17pm
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Pakeha is such a gross term. I am not Pakeha. I'm not NZ European. I'm a New Zealander. On forms, if it's not there, I tick 'other' and write it in. Pedantic I know, but it's important to me.
Becks, the scholarships are at institutions, like at my TCol they had specific Maori and Pasifika scholarships and all they had to do to apply was prove heritage and say why they wanted the scholarship. The only one I could get being from a white, middle-class family (who did not pay any of my fees or living costs) was a high-achievers one ranked over the whole country. My friend who got a scholarship (Maori one) was living at home, her parents paid everything for her anyway. There would have been a lot more people, Maori or otherwise that needed that a lot more than she did. It's like they assume all Maori and Pasifika people are poor and need help. So not true. Arohanui - I hear you on the multicultural teaching. I reckon its so much more beneficial to address the cultures and needs of the kids in front of you rather than being so strict sticking to guidelines. And yes I'm still completely jealous of you going back to teaching! |
Posted By: MummyFreckle
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:26pm
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Thats interesting Emz, I wasnt born here, but I still class myself as a NZer. I also put that on forms, as does my DH who is a 5th generation NZer. I may not have been born here, but I certainly feel like a NZer.
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Posted By: jack_&_charli
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:36pm
i do the exact same thing emz! i hate pakeha and i'm not european...i'm a new zealander  ------------- http://www.alternatickers.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Mazzy
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 8:44pm
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That NZer classification is an interesting one. I used to do the same thing but then realised I'm actually equally as proud of my European heritage and culture, as is DH, so I'm happy to be a NZ European. It's who I am and I think those distinctions can be an important part of each individual's identity. Putting a blanket term over all of us takes away from our diversity, we can still be different and united as New Zealanders, IMO of course.
Now we're really off track from the OP! ------------- Mum to two gorgeous girls! |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:07pm
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Kelly - wow, I thought C's dad was more Maori than that, she's got a tan to rival my Maya and Willie's a real blackie! ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: newmum
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:08pm
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LOL Funny how some people see this as a "bun fight" or hot topic when I just see it as an interesting discussion that has remained pretty civil!! Maybe that's a culture thing LOL Germans are known to be direct and loud ------------- http://lilypie.com">
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:13pm
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How long ago was that? and are you sure it is a government one as a lot of Universities still have scholarships for Maori and Pasifika people that are run through the University but the money comes from other places not the government. There are a scholarship any person that could prove they were Maori got that the goverment has now stopped. ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
Posted By: Glow
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:38am
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Wow, interesting reading here
I think NZ history & basic Maori pronounciation should be compulsory. My area (The King Country) has only 1 European place/town name & it annoys me that NO ONE EVER says Otorohanga for example correctly & if i pronounce it how it should be NO ONE EVER knows where im talking about. Its sad really!!
History & pronouciation lesson for the day! One day in 1887 two friends, Tane Tinorau & Fred Mace discovered a hole in the side of a hill where the river continued through. The decided to build a raft & float on in to see where it went. It was dark inside. Fred had a staff to help guide the raft, all of a sudden Fred slipped with the staff & it went up Tane's bum. Tane turned around & said "Get out you "WhiteHomo" And thats how Waitomo got its name ------------- Mummy of Two Boys B: 2004 K: 2007 |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:43am
Not being silly, just curious - can you phoenetically spell how it should pronounced? It is hunga, not honga? ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:44am
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Also, I know this sounds stupid but I tend towards the Pakeha way of pronouncing Maori because saying it properly sounds like mouldy, and I always feel really embarrassed ... as though I'm being insulting ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: Jay_R
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:50am
| Hmmm, when I pronounce the word Maori I kinda say it like Maaaaaaaaari |
Posted By: Glow
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 9:52am
Yep Or -tore -raw - ha -nga (nga is hard to explain) NOT OH- tow- ra - honga LOL ------------- Mummy of Two Boys B: 2004 K: 2007 |
Posted By: ginger
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 10:36am
Oh. Poop ------------- Cuinn Lachlan 23.1.09 - 22:00 Antonia Helene 4.8.11 - 09:41 |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 11:19am
I use the 'other' box if there isn't a NZ European option. I refuse to tick the 'pakeha' box. -------------
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Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 12:04pm
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Like Becks said most scholarships are funded privately so if they want them Maori only then thats the founders choice.
I think every culture should be respected but while we are in New Zealand Maori should have precedence over Japanese and such (in schools I mean) I think its funny how some of you are saying how Maoris aren't as high acheivers as Pakeha and say about the once were warriors culture but then hate how they get special scholarships and have certain quotas for courses. Isn't that a good thing? Helping them to get somewhere? |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 12:24pm
Eek! Guilty there! We always used to stop in Otorohanga on our way to NP to visit my grandparents and I still pronounce it the wrong way, not coz I don't know how to pronounce it, more coz it's one of the few Maori words I find really, really tricky to get my tongue around
The best way I can think of to explain the correct pronunciation of the word Maori is to break it down into syllables... Maa-oo-ri (the 'o' isn't actually a double sound but it's not the classic English 'oh' sound. ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: pepsi
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 12:48pm
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Yeah, like "mouldy" right
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Posted By: SMoody
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 12:59pm
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I try to pronounce the words correctly as I am learning them. As for Maori in school for McKayla.
Have no problem with it. I would like her to learn other languages specially when they are still small but I think when they go on further the choice should be left to them if they would like to continue. Some people are great in languages where others cant get their heads around it. NZ history: I thought the Maori history was part of that? Or is is a seperate thing? In SA it depends in which province you are. There is 11 official languages and depending where you are is what is taught in schools. Get a bit daunting if you ask me. As for correct pronounciation. I think I rather prefer someone really trying to use the words (even if not totally correctly) than not at all. Sometimes the more we use it the easier it becomes to say but if someone keeps on making noise about you using it incorrectly the more you are going to not want to use the words as you will feel totally self concious about it. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: nikkitheknitter
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 3:36pm
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I haven't read all the rest of the posts... got annoyed after page two so couldn't be bothered.
I think Maori is a really important language for New Zealand and I'm absolutely appalled at your students Liz. Freaking outrageous. I'm from Rotorua and so have been exposed to quite a lot of Maori culture. Love it and am terribly proud of my primary school foray into kapa haka. I rocked at poi.
Anyway, what I wanted to mention (and this seems to have died down a bit) is that it is terribly depressing to hear people stereotype Maori (re: page 2). We had bad kids at school too (Rotorua. ha.) and a high percentage happened to be Maori but I don't believe for a second that it was the Maori culture that was the determinant of their behaviour. I would put more emphasis on socio-economic levels because without a doubt I could say that they were all from very low income families. You can swing it whichever way you want and blame it on whatever you want but Maori culture wouldn't tolerate that sort of stuff. And equating Maori with 'problem children' is like equating Muslims with terrorism. Unfortunately that also happens.
Anyway - I am so terribly proud that Hannah is getting a good grounding in the Maori language. The kid was telling me all about Rangi, Papatuanuku, Tangaroa etc etc. I was loving it! Oh, and I always try and pronounce the Maori language properly. My downfall is "Rotorua". I guess it's because I have grown up with people bastardising the pronounciation of my home town that I just can't bring myself to pronounce it properly all the time
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Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 3:39pm
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Oooh I can do Rotorua! It's just something about Otorohanga that trips me up. ------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: fire_engine
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 4:06pm
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Thought I'd join in the discussion ....
Re specified places for Maori in training institutions. I used to be really anti till I realised people on the quota system still have to get the same grades to graduate. I would think it really unfair if you could pass a medical degree (for example) with a lower grade than someone else. I have to admit, I struggled with understanding Maori culture till I went on a compulsory course earlier this year at work (and I've been on lots of compulsory cultural courses). The woman taking it was a midwife who set up a service based on the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. I was really confused by that initially, but she managed to articulate it really well (I won't even try to repeat it cos I'll get it wrong). She also had an amazing ability to talk about Maori history in a way that no teacher has ever talked about it - I had absolutely no idea about the torturing and killing that went on in the 1800s. No wonder there are some pretty huge grievances out there. I really should read Michael King's book and try and understand more. I've also been doing a research project at work and one of the questions for staff was "how did you consider the person's cultural needs when planning their care". For Maori patients, the main answers were around involving their family, having karakia, being aware of issues around touching the head etc. For patients of Pakeha/NZ Euro/whatever you term it descent, the standard answer was "they don't have a culture". For me, that really struck a chord. When I was on the course with this Maori midwife, I really envied her her knowledge of her history and cultural identity and made me question "what is my cultural identity" other than the term that I tick in the box at the census. It also made me think about the narrow definition of culture that we use - ie ethnicity. I'm a fan of Maori and NZ history being taught (and also Maori language) but it needs to be taught well rather than taught for the sake of it by someone who really doesn't know much about it. That probably made very little sense, but was just some things that came to mind when I was reading through the posts. ------------- Mum to two wee boys |
Posted By: nikkitheknitter
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 4:47pm
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Hrmmmm... yeah... what is my culture?
Will ponder and potentially set up another thread. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 6:46pm
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Western countries have become so intermixed that each countries specific culture has become quite watered down but it still there, its what defines our laws and what we expect from society, i.e social support/health services/eductation etc. Its not as important to ask the specific needs of the majority because the systems are built with them in mind in the first place. Ok not sure that makes any sense but hopefully you get what I mean. -------------
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Posted By: Glow
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 6:58pm
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Yea maybe Otorohanga wasn't a very good example, it is a tricky one to get off your tongue! Admittedly I dont pronounce it properly all the time coz it isnt how every one else says it & it gets confusing.. & embarrassing having people look at me funny & say "what?"
A better example would of been Taupo or Rotorua ------------- Mummy of Two Boys B: 2004 K: 2007 |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 7:01pm
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Ok so how do you pronounce those. (please remember I am new to the country and didn't learn maori at school, I learnt french and german) -------------
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