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Were your parents ’criminals’?

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Topic: Were your parents ’criminals’?
Posted By: weegee
Subject: Were your parents ’criminals’?
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 5:31pm
Ok so disclaimer here: I support the "anti-smacking" legislation and don't intend to smack my children, although it is far enough in the future that I wouldn't be able to 100% guarantee I will never lose my temper and give their backsides a quick flick.

But this seems a little bit excessive to me - heck, if my parents were raising me now they would probably have lost custody of me if this is the precedent! http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10543730 - Herald Link

ETA - please don't misunderstand me, I'm not condoning the woman's actions, and hope to God I would never lose my temper like that myself - I'm just saying it seems a shame that she has to lose custody of her child when there are so many worse parents out there who still have their kids (assuming these were a one-off).

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Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010



Replies:
Posted By: Kellz
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 5:43pm
According to the article, her punishment resulted in the boy bleeding and having bruising. Thats terrible. I dont think its acceptable at all, it is good she is being made to attend courses to help her deal with her issues. Parenting is often extremely stressful and who knows what other stress and issues were going on in her life, but never should it be ok to injure your child or any child like that.


Posted By: blondy
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 5:44pm
My sister and I were smacked growing up. My parents raised us in a loving household, and believe me, when they (I shoudl say Mum ) resorted to giving us an occasional smack, we totally deserved it. Personally, I am committed to using alternative methods with Natalie, but like you weegee, I can't say that it won't ever happen. I hold no grudges against my parents at all, and I actually think having it as a last line of punishment helped us to figure out where the boundaries were for our behaviour. (we weren't ever grabbed by our ears , but I do remember one incident in particular where I was being a right biarch, and just totally pushing Mum's buttons, and she did get mad and hit me - she apologised profusely over the years, but I was fine with it, and I think it made me realise that you didn't disrespect her!)

I think that for children living in families where they don't feel wanted, loved and secure that it can be such a dangerous thing to do however.

ETA: we were never injured, more just given a bit of a fright - I do think that picking up a child by the ears is absolutely terrible

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Posted By: weegee
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 5:52pm
I absolutely agree Kellz, no parent should ever injure their child and bleeding and bruising is totally unacceptable. I definitely think she should be attending parenting courses. I just think losing custody of your kids should be a last resort, especially since the implication was that these were the only times she had done anything like this. (Of course, if she routinely pulled her kid up by the ears and smacked him about the legs with anything, then it's totally justified that she should lose custody!)

The worst I ever got was one day when we were about to head out to church, and this was during a period where we had absolutely no money and were taking a calculator grocery shopping, so my parents were very stressed out (Dad was on the dole, although our parents hid that from us!), and I whined that I didn't have anything to wear, and Dad lost his temper and whacked me across the face with the wooden-soled shoe I had been holding. That was when I vowed never to hit my kids

But like blondy, it was a loving household and my parents did the best they could, and they wouldn't have deserved to lose custody of me for that.

ETA: IKWYM blondy, it was the same with us, mostly a swift whack on the backside. The day we realised it didn't hurt it stopped working and my parents stopped doing it.

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Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010


Posted By: weegee
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 5:56pm
eek I gotta stop being so contentious

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Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010


Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 6:01pm

I think that the sentence is fair.  Her defence counsel says she's low-risk at reoffending and yet on 2 seperate occasions her "punishment" amounted in abuse of her son.  These are the situations that were noticed and reported, how many other times has she abused her son unnoticed.

Fair enough that he's not in her care until she can get her temper under control.  It's a shame that the child is in cyfs care rather than in the care of a loving family member but hopefully this mother can get the help she obviously needs to help her be a good parent.

I agree being a parent is stressful at times but we are the adults and should act as such.  There's no excuse for acting like children and no excuse for losing our tempers at our children and abusing them.  About 15 mins ago my daughter thought it would be funny to spit water at me I didn't spit it back at her, or grab her water bottle and beat it with it.  There's absolutely no excuse!!!



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Posted By: blondy
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 6:01pm
nothing like some contention to make life interesting.....

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Posted By: blondy
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 6:13pm
sorry for the serial posting, but i wanted to add that for every family (like yours and mine, weegee) where light smacking was used as a last resort in a loving household, there is another family where hitting was abusive (i.e. Nia Glassie), and for that reason, i agree that the law is necessary to prosecute people that do injure their children

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Posted By: weegee
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 6:16pm
blondy, you put it all so much better than I did!

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Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010


Posted By: peanut butter
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 6:58pm

I am not so keen on the anti smacking legislation as I think its a tad OTT but I do think what this mother did is a bit off.  Our parents hit us when we were right little sh*ts but I NEVER got bruises or bled!.....in fact I think the wooden spoon got off worse than me...it broke....dont think it even made contact with my toosh.

 

I think when you bruise or damage the child, you've gone to far.  A slap on the hand or bum is pretty harmless......but I like to think you can do other things instead of smacking.



Posted By: Jay_R
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 8:28pm
Anti-smacking Nazi signing in.....

This woman's sentence is nowhere near harsh enough in my opinion.

Parents should not EVER have the 'right' to hurt their children, and I'm sorry but the whole 'I was smacked as a child and it did me no harm' is old and completely crap as a form of justification.

We are ADULTS. Yes. ADULTS. By now we should have managed to control our behaviour and not even think of smacking as a form of discipline toward our children. There is no justifiable instance where a grown adult should feel they have the right to use physical force (ie smacking) against their children. They are tiny little humans, and there is no circumstance where it is acceptable for us to use our grown up strength to hit our children into submission. Because that is what smacking is. Forcing our babies into submission.

Yes our children test us, and yes it gets hard sometimes. But it is not legal to lay a hand on another adult so why should it be ok to do so to a defenceless, innocent child?? How can that ever be ok???

Ripping ears so they bleed?? Do that to a grown up and you've got 5 years in prison. Given that our babies are about 1/32nd the size of a grown up the punishment should be 32 times as worse for doing it to a child.



No matter which way you look at it, smacking is NOT loving. It is big grown up people using physical force against tiny innocent people in moments of stress and pressure.

It is not justifiable, it is not ok, and people deserve punishment for using force against their babies.

We need smacking to be illegal in this country because SOOOOOOO many parents do not have the control over themselves to be able to "smack wisely". Whatever that is. We as a country have lost too many babies, and we must strive to make sure that this cannot happen again.

If enough parents, loving, wonderful parents stand against smacking and say it is not ok, then we are getting somewhere. But hearing people justify when smacking our babies is 'ok' sickens me. It is never ok. No matter which way you look at it.



Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 8:31pm
I agree with you 100%

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Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 8:46pm
Me too.

One thing I do understand though is reaching that point of being so angry you could hit them. Unfortunately many parents are too proud or whatever to accept that maybe they aren't coping and need help. There is plenty of help out there and our kids deserve parents who do the right thing. Getting angry doesn't make you a bad parent its doing nothing about it that does.


Posted By: weegee
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 8:52pm
Absolutely fair enough - and joshierocks, I think being anti smacking (as I am!) doesn't make you any sort of nazi - just a loving parent and reasonable person. I have plenty of friends who thought that their rights were somehow being infringed upon when the legislation was being debated and I refused to discuss it with them because I didn't want to get all upset. I think it may have been one of those things where the silent majority agreed that the repeal was necessary but it was the vocal minority making a big fuss because they still want to be able to hurt their kids.

And the other thing is, I have seen lots of parents discipline their children in lots of different ways and the simple truth is that non violent discipline actually works better.

On reflection, I agree with Jo:

Originally posted by MrsMojo MrsMojo wrote:

Fair enough that he's not in her care until she can get her temper under control.



Thanks for the discussion ladies! I always feel like I have grown a little when my mind is able to be changed about something after a bit of thought and airing of opinions.

ETA: well said Rach!

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Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010


Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 18 November 2008 at 11:57pm
See, I was not smacked growing up. Granted I was a pretty good kid but Mum is a calm person who educated herself in alternatives to smacking so she could use other skills to get her message across. I know right from wrong, I know not to run out on to busy roads etc    

I don't smack my children and will never use physical force on them- I am completely anti-smacking. I totally believe that we live what we learn, I think its our responsibility to do the best for our children by educating ourselves and stopping the cycle of violence.

Parents need to find alternative ways to teach children right from wrong rather than just lashing out when they lose their temper. I don't believe anyone ever has the right to hit anyone else- the thought that loving parents could ever want to cause physical harm to their precious children just baffles me. I do everything in my power to stop them being hurt, I would never ever want to be the one to cause them pain. How do you think it makes them feel when the person they trust implicitly to protect them turns on them and is the one who is causing them harm? I can't imagine how much damage that would do. I don't think it teaches right from wrong- it just teaches them not to do something if they don't want to get hurt by their parents.

As for the case- I think she completely deserved her punishment. That child was in an abusive situation and he got removed from it, thats how the system should work. If he wound up being killed further down the line and all this stuff had been reported and he hadn't been removed, we would be in uproar. Its about time they start pre-empting things and rescuing the children before the wind up being news headlines.

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Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3



Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 10:01am
She lifted him up by the ears ?! thats abuse , pure and simple .
Im glad she got punished for it , because it shows that they are serious about cracking down on child abuse .

I have smacked Caitlyn once , when she ran onto the road, im not going to sit here and defend my actions, Im not proud of it, but I know that im a damn good mother and was just not thinking when I reacted like that,(my daughter , big truck coming towards her ....logic goes out the window ) and I hated it so much that I have never done it since...and there have been plenty of times shes tempted me ...but logic prevails, im the adult , shes the child ...besides I couldn't bear the guilt

There ARE plenty of parents tho , that smacking is just a light form of torture, and is the least of what they are doing , so due to this , the attitude that its ok to hit a child , even smacking , needs to change.

There was something in the paper a week or so ago about some man who was charged with hitting his kids (smacking I believe) he said it was his "right' as a christian to hit his children , the charges were apparently dropped , does anyone know anything more about this case ? were they dropped because of lack of evidence? or because of his claim ?

Edited because first post may have sounded like i was angry

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Posted By: Jay_R
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 10:05am
I read about that too Kelly, and I don't actually think they clarified exactly why the charges were dropped. Might go off and do some investigating


Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 10:08am
No I dont think they clarified either...if the charges were dropped because of his claim (that its his right as a christian ) then that just derides the whole point of the anti smacking bill, and says its ok for some , and not for others

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Posted By: Nefertiti
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 10:33am
My friends are doing a parenting course. And their children are involved in a another programe with the same organisation. The kids (mainly youngest who is 8) has been told that if the parents argue for more than 10 minutes, and one of the adults haven't left the house to call 111. I couldn't believe it! Are parents not even allowed to disagree anymore??

Edited to add childs age as I had missed out the number lol

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http://lilypie.com">


Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 10:40am
I saw that case too- from what I can remember it was dismissed because of lack of evidence. The father was being a show pony for the media and saying it was his christian right to smack his children, which was what got the headlines. I was doing a search to try and find it (it was on stuff but won't load for me at the moment). I found this site which is hilarious! Its called righttosmack.co.nz and its a big p*ss take, I was in fits Soooo un-pc and tounge in cheek!

ETA: only look at the site if you can take a joke! Some may think its wrong to joke about violence but it is more about making a mockery of the pro-smacking arguments.

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Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3



Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 10:54am

I just had a heated discussion with a couple of the ladies I work with (both have children my age).  They are pro-smacking and think that half the trouble with youths today is that they weren't smacked   I was arguing the point saying that smacking is not an effective form of discipline and that there are other ways to discipline a child which they both disagreed with.  I went on to say that children are so little and yet people think it's ok to smack them and yet if you smacked an adult it would be called assault to which one answered "yes but that's just pc bullocks too"

I think banging my head against a brick wall would be a more useful and enjoyable way of spending my morning tea break.



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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:02am
Originally posted by MrsMojo MrsMojo wrote:

They are pro-smacking and think that half the trouble with youths today is that they weren't smacked  



well thats a load of cr*p , my brother was smacked heaps, and given some good whacks with the wooden spoon, and he still was (and still is ) a real pain , he was in court recently for dangerous driving, he does a lot of drugs and is rude and obnoxious ....so I can safetly tell your workmates that his problems had nothing to do with not being smacked


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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:04am
I think one of the main trouble with youths these days is the ease in which they can get things, and boredom.
And a lack of good role models , tv and the computer (she says as she types away ) are not parents and not role models .

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Posted By: weegee
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:16am
lmao that's a great site Jen! Love the messages page, some people are pretty thick huh?

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Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010


Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:26am
I know!

"My parants used to hit and hurt me an I tirnd out good. Wunce my bruther recovid from his head injury, he wus good too."   
And the one about wife beating and the 'hidings-for-tax-cuts'. DH and I were cracking up
I still think the 'sign the petition' page is the best one though- see the names?


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Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3



Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:29am

Originally posted by caitlynsmygirl caitlynsmygirl wrote:

I think one of the main trouble with youths these days is the ease in which they can get things, and boredom.
And a lack of good role models , tv and the computer (she says as she types away ) are not parents and not role models .

 

Lack of responsibility and being encouraged to stay kids for too long has a lot to answer to as well. 

I cringe whenever I hear someone say "they're too young to know better" in regards to their toddlers and young children.  IMO they're only too young to know better the first time they do it.  Another pet hate is "they're much too young to be disciplined/put in timeout etc" and then a few years down the track the parents have no control over their children because they've always let them get away with bad behaviour in the past.



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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:35am

The comments page on the website you posted is cracking me up. 

Such as "That's absolutely outstanding and contains nothing controversial in any way. However I'm a bit confused. I couldn't find a single reference to wife beating, and we all know the benefits of that....
R, Nottingham"

Some people are taking it all very seriously and others are totally taking the piss too.



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Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:36am
meant to add the lack of responsibility and being babied too long as well , I think those are definetly key factors


I must go look at this site ! sounds funny

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Posted By: Jay_R
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:44am
OMG, thats hilarious!!!

ETA: I can't believe some of the people who left messages really thought it was a serious site!! Thats fantastic

So, did any of you Welly mums attend the smackathon??


Posted By: Jennz
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:47am
Older generations beleive in alot of really outdated stuff. As we evolve certain behaviours become outdated, they become socially undesirable, unlawful and eventually future generations look back on it and think it barbaric that we ever considered doing it.

Less than a generation ago corporal punishment was acceptable, hopefully smacking is heading in that direction where it becomes a distant, shameful memory very quickly.

I think there seems to be this big lack of responsibility going on when it comes to raising our children. The whole 'it takes a village' idea isn't how we raise our children anymore- everyone seems so quick to blame everyone else. Parents blame the schools, who blame the social workers, who blame lack of government funding etc etc. Its about time people stepped up and started getting their villages back (says she who is completely isolated on the other side of the world ).

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Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3



Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 11:54am

Originally posted by Jennz Jennz wrote:


I think there seems to be this big lack of responsibility going on when it comes to raising our children. The whole 'it takes a village' idea isn't how we raise our children anymore- everyone seems so quick to blame everyone else. Parents blame the schools, who blame the social workers, who blame lack of government funding etc etc. Its about time people stepped up and started getting their villages back (says she who is completely isolated on the other side of the world ).

 

I totally agree!  Many parents are too busy nowadays to care for their kids and that saddens me so much.  It's great when grandparents or other family members step in and share the load but sadly it seems nowadays more and more families are doing it alone and choosing earning money to spend on things we don't need as more important than working less hours and spending time with our children.  It was highlighted this week in the news article about parents who are dropping their primary school aged kids off to school up to an hour before the gates even open so they can get to work.  Imagine the kind of trouble kids can get into in an unsupervised hour (the ones in the article were playing chicken with cars on the motorway) and lets not forget there are unsavoury adults out there that will see unsupervised children as an opportunity (like the guy that posed as a truency officer).



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Posted By: Jay_R
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by MrsMojo MrsMojo wrote:

Originally posted by Jennz Jennz wrote:


I think there seems to be this big lack of responsibility going on when it comes to raising our children. The whole 'it takes a village' idea isn't how we raise our children anymore- everyone seems so quick to blame everyone else. Parents blame the schools, who blame the social workers, who blame lack of government funding etc etc. Its about time people stepped up and started getting their villages back (says she who is completely isolated on the other side of the world ).


 


I totally agree!  Many parents are too busy nowadays to care for their kids and that saddens me so much.  It's great when grandparents or other family members step in and share the load but sadly it seems nowadays more and more families are doing it alone and choosing earning money to spend on things we don't need as more important than working less hours and spending time with our children.  It was highlighted this week in the news article about parents who are dropping their primary school aged kids off to school up to an hour before the gates even open so they can get to work.  Imagine the kind of trouble kids can get into in an unsupervised hour (the ones in the article were playing chicken with cars on the motorway) and lets not forget there are unsavoury adults out there that will see unsupervised children as an opportunity (like the guy that posed as a truency officer).




Totally agree with both of you.


Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 5:24pm
I think when you bruise or damage the child, you've gone to far. A slap on the hand or bum is pretty harmless......but I like to think you can do other things instead of smacking.

This is more my stance on it.

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http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Angel June 2012



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