Fighting the bottle
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Topic: Fighting the bottle
Posted By: KiwiL
Subject: Fighting the bottle
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 7:30pm
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Jackson is now on bottle full time.
He will always take the bottle happily to start. After about 70 - 100ml he will eject and need to burp. Then the fun begins. He WILL NOT take the bottle again. He fights and squirms and clamps his mouth shut. It's a battle, but if you get the bottle back in, then he will stop fighting and drink another 70 - 100ml! However, it is ridiculous that we have to fight him in such a way. But he is obviously still hungry and the fact he eats more suggests we need to do the battle. Anyone had a baby similar? Any ideas why he might do this? He has bad reflux but it is being treated with 15mg omeprazole per day, which is a high dose. This behaviour is really tiresome and sometimes quite distressing. |
Replies:
Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:01pm
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I don't really have any idea... but is it EBM or formula? Perhaps he doesn't like it so he only has as much as is absolutely necessary. -------------  |
Posted By: happymumma
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:03pm
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We have a similar issue at the moment. Ollie is clearly wanting the bottle, will drink a bit and then cry. He will drink most of the bottle but periodically pulls off and cries. I don't think it is reflux, the teat is appropriate for his age...
Sorry...no answers...just keen to hear whatever anyone else comes up with too!! What bottle and teat size are you using Kiwilaurie? Could it be flow rate? THe only other thing I can think is if you could stop his need to burp in the middle would that help? Have you tried something like Infacol? I'm with you on the tiresome / distressing front. It's hard going. Hang in there. |
Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:22pm
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Hmmm, we have dealt with this aswell and I have found the best thing to do is put him down to play for 10 mins of so, and then try again and he will usually drink the rest happily.
Fighting him is probably making him annoyed, hence why he wont drink, so Id try letting him play for a bit then offer him the bottle again. Having a play on his tummy will help him get any more wind up aswell and make room in his tummy for more milk. Just put the bottle in a bowel of hot water to keep it warm 
I have trouble with Caden even now doing that, he will push the bottle away and get grumpy at me, so I put the bottle down and then he is going "ah ah ah uhhh" trying to get to the bottle lol And sometimes he just likes to have kick and play and then drink the rest, as formula is filling and remember Jackson is still getting used to it ------------- |
Posted By: denny25
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:38pm
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Ava used to do that. We actually stopped burping her 1/2 way through and just let her drink as much as she wanted. that way we found she drunk more. Then we would burp her for ages after, and sit her up for 10 mins or so.
Could be the flow rate. what teat size have you got him on? Also, ive read that babies who are overtired tend to do this... |
Posted By: happymumma
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:43pm
Interesting Denny - Ollie has definitely been overtired at times so I wonder whether that's the answer for him. Thanks 
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Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:57pm
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OMG we went through this for ages, I was going insane, but it seems to have stopped.My only advice if he really is saying no, do not keep offering and fighting, for a start its no fun and i'm sure it made finley worse. He would then tense up and so would i. In the end I stopped forcing him an just let him take it, oh and I changed formula from Karricare to s26, whether it was him that changed or me, not sure but we don't have this issue anymore. When he shakes his head and closes his mouth, I just say to him ok no more then and we move on, if he hasn't had much I might offer him more 15 - 20 minutes later. More often than not though he is ok now. Actually come to think of it, we had this issue when we went to the bottle full time, so maybe it was just getting used to the change and wind...who knows, but its not worth fighing him, we had some snack feeding days because of it, but like I said he has learnt to take more and I no longer dread feeding (I was for a while) and that probably helps. Whoops long post, but what you described is exactly how Finn used to be. Sorry...finally Finley definately only does this now when overtired. ------------- 
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:57pm
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He does it with EBM or formula, so not sure it is the taste. I think this is the point he used to stop feeding on the breast, so at least we CAN get more into him, it is just difficult.
Have also tried the big break thing, but he still super-fusses. But as soon as the bottle is in his mouth properly he will drink happily. He just doesn't want it in there!! It would be impossible to feed him when out and about! We use infacol in the bottle, and keep him on as long as possible, but often he will just spit it out quite early on. Doesn't matter if he has had 50ml, 70ml or 120ml, the ensuing battle is always the same. Ideally I'd like to not wind him till the end, but he does get upset if we don't stop when he wants to. He's on thickened formula and we have him on a medium teat. He is coping really well with the flow right from the beginning, so I think the teat size is ok too. Perplexed!! I will try a bit of a longer play for a bit, as that seems to work for a few of you. If there is any more advice, please share! |
Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 8:59pm
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Just saw your post Fi. Thanks for the tips!
You're right - I am dreading feeding as I get so tense myself. I will see how we go over the next couple of days. |
Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 9:06pm
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Sorry, but what you are saying is identical, I stopped feeding when out, so stopped going out near feed times, as he would pull off anywhere from 50+ and just scream, took ages to calm down. I dreaded feeding him at my coffee group even, he honestly made so much fuss. My tips, would only be, stop fighting, if he pulls off once, offer once more, before saying ok, putting the bottle down and doing something else, for a while it meant during the day we were feeding 2 hourly, but it DID get easier. Its nuts cos you know they are hungry. I think its the change, what formula do you use, when we changed to s26 it got better. I -------------
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Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 9:09pm
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I think I got so wound up as it was just when I was stopping bf cos he wouldn't stay on the boob/suck or do anything and I thought heck if he won' drink the bottle either, how is this going to work. I think Sheza is right its more filling, stomachs take time to get used to the change. On a good note, we now have a wee little piggy who chugs through his bottles (except today but now I know its just not a mega hungry day so its ok) -------------
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Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 9:12pm
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All I would suggest then is that if he is refusing the bottle, give him a break from it and offer it again in 15+ minutes, when he seems to be hungry again. ------------- |
Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 25 January 2009 at 9:15pm
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Laurie just bumped my post from just before christmas where I ask pretty much the same thing.
mega thanks still to Sheza for suggesting S26 - we've never looked back -------------
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Posted By: jaycee
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 8:52am
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I would also suggest having a great if he fusses, but also have you tried a different bottle and teat shape? i have always used avent and had no problems but a friends baby hated them and they use tommy tipee.
Also for such a wee boy with a little tummy, it may take a while to work up to 150ml or more. It did for Sophie. We have just had a bad patch with her when she stops dead on 100ml and wont take a drop more  .-------------   
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 9:24am
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Well, tried a break today but still had the same fuss. I will keep trying all day to see if we can get him calmed down enough to take it again. He just acts like he is still starving but won't accept the bottle again. It's very confusing. He is on S26 AR formula and doesn't seem to mind the taste, though it has to be warm.
I really hope it's what you guys say.... that he's just getting used to it and building up his appetite. I get stressed when the formula tin says a 4 month old should be having 1200ml a day, and sometimes Jackson only does 600ml! I worry that he won't grow or develop properly if he doesn't eat well. I wish they could tell us what was wrong! As an aside, the constipation goes away eventually right? I have been trying to give some water but it's hard when he gets upset at the bottle. Any other tips? |
Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 9:43am
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Yep constipation went for us - no issues now. Hey i forgot to say I my DH's cousin had a lovely little chubby bubba at xmas and she said some days she drinks loads and some days she'll only want 100ml and she was nearly 6 months old and a very healthy weight, is now sitting, crawling and eating solids. I was told not to give a break in the feed unless they pull off, so we don't now, it made him more angry, i let him go for it until he pulls off, wind and offer again, sometimes he has finished the whole thing, sometimes I have no tips for water, I've tried everything and he just loses it with me - he really knows when its water not milk. I even tried from a sippy cup as he wouldn't recognise that but no. -------------
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Posted By: jaycee
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 9:45am
You could try 1/2 tsp of soft brown sugar in 50ml of cooled boiled water - it helps to move it on  . It also tastes better than plain water!
Don't get too freaked out by the numbers - some babies probably never take 1200ml. S26 is more volume than the other formulas too. The others all seem to be in 50ml lots not 60ml. As I said before, it took Sophie a while to get up to 200ml and she often didn't drink it all. Is he fairly settled (apart from feeding time)? And how is he at night? -------------
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Posted By: SophiasMummy
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 9:52am
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We had same problem, she has been on the bottle 5 days now and is just starting to get better. I also use infacol and don't stop to burp her, I just burp her once she spits it out, she often then won't take anymore. I think she is gradually building up the amount she takes (I keep a note just to make sure she is not falling to far backwards, still a paranoid mummy!). Yes it is confusing when after a big battle they will take more but I am just not battling anymore and what will be will be. Soph is not taking anywhere near what the tin says, she takes maybe 600ml and tin says 900ml for the day. When you think about it if they haven't been getting much bf then there tummies are not capable of taking more straight away, i.e. I remember when I had glandular fever and pretty much didn't eat for a week, it took me a long time to build up to eating a full meal again.
Sorry about the ramble. I am sure Jackson will get better in time. Oh I am using NUK teats and she seems to like these. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 10:07am
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I am glad I am not the only one to have had the problem!
I never take the bottle of Jackson, but by 100ml he always spits it out to have time out. Is it possible he will get used to drinking for longer? It would be so much easier not to stress if we did not have the weight gain/reflux issue. But, then if we didn't have the weight gain/reflux issue he would still be breastfed and we'd both be happy! We are also using Nuk - the wider ones, not the tiny square-ish ones. It took us ages to find a bottle he liked, but he is very competent on these. He knows how to drink, he just pretends he doesn't want to! |
Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 10:12am
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Oh, Jaycee, to answer your questions, yes he is pretty calm and settled during the day. He gets fairly ratty in the evening though. Not sure if it's the witching hour or wind catching up on him.
He's a bit grumpy at the moment because he's constipated. Would that give him a sore belly? At night he goes to bed about 8pm (try to make it 7pm but it never seems to work). He's then up at 10pm for a feed at 10:30pm and back down by about 11:15pm. He'll then wake anywhere between about 3:30am and 5am for a feed. We're hoping to eventually drop that one!! |
Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 12:53pm
 No problem!
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FionaandFinley wrote:Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 1:08pm
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The constipation will give him a sore tummy, since he is 4 months old now I would start offering him 50mls of cooled boiled water seperate from his bottles, and you can add a wee bit of brown sugar to it, this ALWAYS gets caden going poo's again.
With his fussing, i really think he is just getting used to the bottle and formula, just keep at it and he will/should eventually stop fussing and just drink. But remember he is used to breastmilk which is a lot thinner and less filling that formula, so his little tummy is still getting used to it. Maybe just let him drink until he stops himself, or spits some out, then just leave him be, then try and offer him the bottle again and if he refuses dont try again that feed, it might be that he has had enough for the time being, as the formula will be filling him up a lot more than your breast milk was. ------------- |
Posted By: tropics
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 4:28pm
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I have similar problems with Jayden every now and then and seems to be his reflux, he would take the first part of the bottle fine and then as soon as he spits it out doesnt want the rest, I now know that when Jayden gets like this that its his reflux and needs his losec upped so im ringing the pead tomorrow, do you think bubs may need his losec upped? Jaydens on 15mg and has been for a while now
we also use the nuk bottles and find them great sometimes I feed Jayden in a place where hes relaxed like in his cot or hammock when he was younger or would rock him when feeding him and he would tend to drink more also if he takes a dummy you can quickly pull that out and relace it with the bottle
good luck hun reflux and fussy feeding sucks! I remember just getting all tense and hated feeding time and felt embarassed when I went out thinking people would think I was forcing him to drink! but now I know for Jayden he needs his losec upped good luck! ------------- http://lilypie.com">    [/url]
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 5:17pm
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THanks Kylie. Jackson has just had his losec upped to 15mg per day, and granules instead of suspension. But I haven't really noticed a difference yet.
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Posted By: busyissy
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 6:16pm
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Hi Kiwilaurie,
If Jackson is still constipated try a little bit of prune or apple juice (just 1/2tsp) in 50mls of warm water, it will really get things moving. Im guessing that with Jackson's reflux he is on a thickened formula, that is probably causing the constipation and it definately gives them a sore belly, just the same as us. Have you noticed if he spills more when constipated? Im sure Isobelle's reflux is worse when she is blocked up. |
Posted By: kakapo
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 6:27pm
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Have you taken Jackson to see a cranial-sacral therapist for his reflux Laurie? We took Jimmy when he was three or four months old, and it made a huge difference to his feeding. He would still spill after every feed, but he was infinitely easier to burp and just seemed to enjoy feeding at long last. The cranial-sacral therapist said it felt as though he had a balloon inside him - ie was really tight and uncomfortable for him. Heard heaps of gurgles etc as she *released* things - was fascinating to watch. He cried a couple of times, but slept as well and seemed quite relaxed during most of his treatments (he had 3 in total). I was a bit dubious about taking him for treatment, but reached the point where I would try anything, and instantly wished I'd taken him soon after birth. Other's suggestions that Jackson's tummy might not yet be able to cope with the "recommended" amounts of formula sound sensible to me. It will take a while to expand and get used to larger amounts of food. The AR formula seems to be even more filling than normal formula too. We tried it for a while but didn't notice any difference really (in terms of his reflux) - changed back as it seemed to make him more constipated than plain formula. Have you considered offering less per feed but increasing his number of feeds during the day for a while, to see if his total daily intake could be increased that way? Guess that could muck up his routine though? All the best, sounds like you're doing a great job ... the pics of him in the photo thread are gorgeous BTW |
Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 26 January 2009 at 10:50pm
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Hi
Well this sounds so familar!! I had been struggling with bubs for weeks with the same issue - I had been to the docs 5 times - on two occassions I got a diagnosis of colic and the other three an ear infection. Last week on our way to Qtown and yet another screaming session (and another dry nappy) we decided enough was enough it wasn't pleasant on bubs or us (how can a 3 month old reduce me to tears!!!). So we headed straight into Dunedin Hospital we were admitted for two days - however it was well worth it - bubs is now the happy smiling cooing little girl I remember. My problems all started when Plunket told me to fed her every 3 hours - well she decided to slow up her eating (was taking an hour and a half to eat) and that was after we had screaming every time it was feeding time and most times we were lucky if we got her to eat 100ml (most times it was 50-90mls). We have gone to feeding her every 4 hours and this had made a huge difference - so maybe have a look at how often you are feeding and perhaps if it is around the 3 hours mark change it. While we were is hospital under the advise of the hospital we had to starve bubs to make her want the bottle again this wasn't easy and thank god it only took one fed to be on our way again also we had to adopt the stand and rocking method of distraction to get the bottle in while this is quite uncomfortable again it only took us 2 days to be able to go back to sitting down when feeding. We have also been diagnosed with having reflux and you can get prescripted medication for this which is also helping her, I also changed forumla from Karicare Birth Gold to the basic birth - I'm so happy to have my little girl back! I hope this helps you in some way, good luck. |
Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 10:18am
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Yes, I have definately noticed an increase in the spilling over the last couple of days. I wasn't sure if it was the change from breast milk to formula, or if being a bit clogged up is causing it as well.
I have been to an osteopath - several sessions that cost me a fortune but to be honest I didn't notice much difference. Jackson is fed 3 - 4 hourly during the day. I worry if I make it 4 hourly then he will be dropping a feed. Which means he would have to substantially increase to cover that off. Glad things are better for you Hannibal. I am holding out on the "it must get better" train of thought! I can't imagine several more months of this.... |
Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 10:20am
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Interesting comments about the AR formula. Maybe I should just try normal formula instead?
Will give it till after our doc appointment on Friday before I change anything. Guess I have to give things time to come right. |
Posted By: SarahP08
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 10:37am
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I know exactly what you mean! My boy was having EBM and would drink 50-70 mls burp and then that would be it, he WOULD NOT drink any more. I spent the first 4 1/2 months of his life stressing about it, worrying he wouldn't put on enough weight, he'd get dehydrated, he wouldn't sleep properly etc etc. I'd dread feed times, most days we'd both end up crying. I eventually realised he'd drink what he wanted and I couldn't force him to drink if he didn't want to and since then we've been more relaxed and much much happier. Some days he'll have 4 x 200ml feeds and a smaller one during the night and some days it'll be 130 - 150 mls a feed but he's happy and healthy and thats the main thing.
My boy also has reflux, he's on 15mg of losec too. He's now having Karicare Gold and the standard NUK teat (only reason for switch to formula was I got sick of expressing every feed after 5 1/2 months of doing it!) I stopped listening to my plunket nurse tho, she told me one week that he'd put on 12g and that my breast milk wasn't good enough and I should put him on formula. He'd acutally put on 120g that week and an average of 220g per week since birth.  ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 11:43am
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Wow - well done for expressing for so long! You should be really proud of your efforts.
Your situation sounds very similar to mine, in that our issues have gone on for months. It's been distressing and depressing - I know what you mean about crying after every feed. We decided to go on formula because Jackson wasn't gaining weight well, and had dropped under the 3rd percentile. He looks so skinny, and we're hoping that formula puts a bit of fat on him. My GP is the one that finally convinced me. To be fair, breast feeding had become really stressful and I think my DH was sick of me being upset all the time. I am still doing a dream feed on the breast, but dunno how long that will last as I think my supply will dry up. I am desperately missing the closeness of breastfeeding, feeling guilty that I couldn't keep it up and generally feeling a bit sh*t! I really hope he does gain some weight, as otherwise I will be quite heartbroken! |
Posted By: SophiasMummy
Date Posted: 27 January 2009 at 2:43pm
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Laurie I know how you feel about the closeness of bf but I am trying really hard to still make it a snuggly time for us both. But just think that a happy formula feed is better than a screaming bf, the crying made it a pretty hard time to bond with her. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 29 January 2009 at 8:09pm
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THANK YOU again everyone for your replies.
As of yesterday, things have improved a little bit. He is still often reluctant to go back on the bottle BUT he is not screaming and fighting it. If I am calm and just chat away with him, he is taking it again. He is still complaining with hunger every 3 hours and I worry that means he is not getting enough, because he didn't used to do that. But I also wonder if, because of his meds, he is beginning to trust the act of eating a little more. I hope that's the case! Today he drank more at each feed than he has before, so I am hoping things are on the improve. I still cry every day about not breastfeeding, but the amount I cry each day is getting less and less. Jackson has a weigh tomorrow, and I am really hoping we see an improvement in his gain. If we do, I think that will help me believe that this has been the right decision. In any case, with Jackson behaving like he has the last two days, I feel I can go out again and not be afraid to feed him. That's gotta be good for both of us! Hugs to everyone who took the time to post. xx |
Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 29 January 2009 at 8:24pm
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Thats great that Jackson is doing better on the bottle! it just takes them a little while to learn, and to get used to formula.
Every 3 hours is very normal Laurie, Caden fed every 3 hours at Jacksons age, and has only just started to stretch it out to 4 hours now that he is on solids. Once Caden was on formula, he gained 200g in one weekend! I was SOOOO shocked and SOOO happy as he was only gaining 40-70g a week on breast milk 
As Jackson gets used to his new food, and his tummy expands a bit he will start gulping down 150ml + !! ------------- |
Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 29 January 2009 at 9:04pm
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Yeah, the downside at the moment is bottle feeding takes him aaaaages and I have to get up and rewarm it three or four times during the feed. He's fussy.... I joked to DH that he only likes his bottles at 39.63 degrees. Funny, but not far off the mark it would seem!
I am not concerned with the every three hours thing, except he didn't want to eat as often when breast feeding. So of course, that now has me second-guessing myself and wondering if he WAS getting enough from me. But deep down, I really believe he wasn't. |
Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 8:06am
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Laurie he may be hungrier as his stomach is starting to grow a bit more with the more and more he is taking. Finley cannot go more than 3 hours without food really and he used to, so I think its to do with them growing more than anything.
Sometimes feeding Finley can take about 45 minutes, if he is messing around, this morning he drank the lot in one go though so it depends on what he feels like doing, you may find he speeds up over time. Hope the weigh in goes well today for you!!!!!!!!! -------------
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Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 1:03pm
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I knew I shouldn't have posted yesterday... didn't want to jinx it.
Today has been awful!! He won't suck and did the hugest vomit. Hopefully it is just a blip and he is not feeling the best maybe. |
Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 4:25pm
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You will get there - he sounds just like my bubs was - wouldn't suck when we were doing every 3 hours (see my early post), we also had throwing up issues a while ago - and it was due to over feeding!
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Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 8:51pm
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Aww **hugs**
Reflux is really hardwork, Jeszika's little boy Max has it bad, and would vomit up an entire bottle sometimes, I think he also has a dairy allergy so is on a specail formula. Maybe give her a PM, Im sure she will give you some great advice. I would say even though he is spilling a lot, he will be putting on much more weight than when he was breastfed. Formula is thicker and fatter and fills them up more, so you will probably find he will have had a lovely weight gain at his next check
Dont second guess yourself hun, just keep looking forward and power on and it will get better **hugs** ETA-How was his weight today? ------------- |
Posted By: fire_engine
Date Posted: 30 January 2009 at 10:01pm
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Hope the weight was OK Laurie.
Timely topic - Daniel has been doing this all day with all oral intake - boob, bottle or solids It drove me insane - I am in awe of those of you who have this on a regular basis ------------- Mum to two wee boys |
Posted By: KiwiL
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 9:43am
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Weight was up 175g in a week. I am taking it with a bit of a grain of salt, because there can be SO many variables within a week.
BUT - for the last four or so weeks before that he was only increasing about 80g a week, so it definately looks promising. It's frustrating, isn't it Fliss? Hope Daniel has come right today. |
Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 9:57am
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175g is GREAT laurie, thats a huge jump from 80g!!! He is doing really well!!
Caden is a piggy, but he was also very very under weight and very hungry from not being able to stay latched on me well, and he gained 200g in 3 1/2 days, and then he was gaing a steady 150g to 200g a week from then on. Then he started thriving and caught up on his weight. ------------- |
Posted By: busyissy
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 1:03pm
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Hi Laurie,
Ive just been re reading this thread to try and pillage the advice people have given you. I have recently been having the same trouble with Isobelle. She just stopped breastfeeding a last week for 4 days in a row. I just didn't know what to do and when she started again my supply had almost gone. She is lucky if she gets 50mls off me. So I am having to wean her on to formula. I was just giving her a bottle and couldn't help thinking 'this isn't right, I should be able to feed you'. But I can't and every time another feed comes around and I have to prepare a bottle I feel like crying. She is not a good bottle feeder, as soon as I sit down she starts to scream and she screams the whole way through the feed, which is taking her an hour to get through, all of her awake time. I don't think she is in pain, her omeprazole dose has just been put up to 5mls a day (suspension not granules) and she is happy playing on her back. We have tried just about every teat with no luck. We tried the Tommee Tippee closer to nature one today and things went a little better, she still cried but at least she took the milk. So I have all my fingers and toes crossed for the next feed. I just wanted to say I know what it is like, how saddening and exhausting it is to fight them at every feed and that I really feel for you. I think you are doing really well and its fantastic that Jackson is gaining weight. 
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