nz pork!?
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Topic: nz pork!?
Posted By: Bizzy
Subject: nz pork!?
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 9:37am
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ok so i finally saw the Sunday programme about the mike king pork fiasco...
i have always been ok with buying nz pork cause i once visited a piggery in matamata and was impressed with how the pigs were kept... but now it seems that was not the norm... seems some pig farmers treat their pigs very very badly. Mike King said on the Sunday programme that even tho he wasnt aware of the state of some piggeries he would still endorse eating nz pork, so long as it was free range... so now i am wondering how do i tell if my pork chops or roast is free range or tortured beast!? what are your thoughts on this? ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:00am
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What the Sunday program showed is what the industry standard practice is for farming pigs, the farmer wasn't doing anything he shouldn't.
I always think these animal welfare programme are aimed at the wrong person - as its the supermarkets that determine the price of goods - and in turn the consumer. The farmer is only trying to get the best price he can which isn't much. You would be hard pressed to find free-range organic pork at any of the major supermarkets. I have had free-range organic pork sausages from whole food organics and they were delicious but they were also expensive. As most of my buying decisions are based on economics I can't see myself changing. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">   [/url] Angel June 2012 |
Posted By: FreeSpirit
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:09am
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If Mike King and his mates broke into your BEDROOM at 2am with a video camera, would you be upset and distressed??? ------------- http://www.babysfirstsite.com"> 
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:12am
i disagree with that completely. animals - wether for food or pets - shouldnt be kept in that condition. i think too that supermarkets are driven by their customers. i remember once asking about a chicken product and being told that the market in that area usually only buys bulk frozen chicken packs so thats what they stocked. if the market dictated free range pork/chicken etc then it would happen. (or am i just dreaming?  )------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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mrsg1 wrote:Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:14am
depends onwhat his mates looked ike? lol! but seriously, do you think that the way the pigs were kept is acceptable and they only bahaved the way they did because it was a bit of a shock at the time ? (this isnt a dig at you but i just want to make sure i have it right...) ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: FreeSpirit
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:34am
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I used to raise pigs for our freezer when I was on the farm, I do agree that it would be nice for the pigs to have a bit more space but the reality is this is what they are used to, this is how exclusive pigfarming is done so it's financially viable. Pigs are reasonably intelligent and are very stuck into a routine (even pet pigs). If you go to a pig at 4 o'clock when 5 is its normal feedtime, it won't expect food. And if woken they become extremely confused and upset. ------------- http://www.babysfirstsite.com">
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 10:54am
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i'm expressing so will pop back later but countdown sell pork from freedom farms ------------- 
 
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Posted By: linda
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 11:07am
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I had no idea how pigs were farmed, just never really thought about it. Similar to chickens really, never really thought about how they were farmed either until it was on tv (years ago). Now we only buy free range eggs but I can't say the same for chicken, we generally buy whats cheap (think I should look into that a bit more)
I was at the supermarket last night and pretty much every Pork, Ham and Bacon item was on sale...except for anything free range or organic. We have decided not to buy standard pork and rather buy free range type bacon but for 300g it cost $11 and I just couldn't justify it. Didn't buy any. I also said to DH that you if we go out for breakfast and have bacon then you also have to consider where that bacon has come from. Some menu's state free range so I would trust that but if they don't mention it then it would be standard bacon...I presume. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
Alex 6 and Harry 8 |
Posted By: emz
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 12:46pm
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To me, I wasn't shocked really.
After seeing my uncle work his ass off on a pig farm (free range style) when I was younger, then go broke (and I mean bankrupt) from a deadly disease all the pigs contracted and not being able to recover because his margins were so slim, it doesn't seem to me like there's a much more viable way for pig farmers to make a buck, or for us to get pork at a price we can afford. I don't think that makes it right but it makes it economics and unfortunately all commodities pretty much run by the same formula - supply and demand. Sure if I had the money I'd be more picky where my meat came from, but at the moment I'm just happy to still be able to afford meat a few times a week. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 12:47pm
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Ok on the issue of the farmer being in the right or wrong, doing something they shouldn't. Under the code of welfare for pigs he was farming to the minimum standards therefore legally he was doing nothing wrong, morally though, well that is something the ethics committee have to decide and unfortunately they think this is ok.
The minister for agriculture who ultimately decides that a code is ok, takes his lead from the ethics committee and I believe admitted on the programme that he knows nothing of how pigs are farmed. The code of welfare for pigs was written by pig farmers (anyone can write and submit a code for the committee to look at, I believe SAFE are currently writing their own one). Pig farmers are hardly going to write a code that takes away from their profits, and money is the only reason pigs are farmed in this manner. Interestingly enough we have one of the best animal welfare acts in the world which states that all animals should have five freedoms, those being proper and sufficient food and water; Adequate shelter; the opportunity to display normal patterns of behaviour; physical handling in a manner that minimises the likelihood of unreasonable or unnecessary pain or distress; and protection from, and rapid diagnosis of, any significant injury and disease. I personally don't think these pigs are being allowed their five freedoms, especially not the ability to display normal behaviours. So you probably wonder how they are allowed to farm when the are breaking the act, trouble is under our law if they were prosecuted it would need to be proved that they weren't farming to the minimums set out in the code which they are but they wrote them and somehow they were classed as being ok even though they fall woefully short of what the intentions of the act were. I don't know if anyone else watched the Oprah show a little while ago about pigs, chickens and veal calfs but they showed factory farms (ones that the farmers willing showed the Oprah cameras around and the farmers were on the show to give their side) and they showed free range farms. The pigs on the free range farm didn't seem distressed to me, they weren't upset about not being confined in a tiny little cage that doesn't even allow them to turn around or lie down, they didn't seem upset that when they gave birth they could actually turn around and look at their piglet, they didn't seem distressed that they could roll in mud and forage around for food. The reason they target these shows at the general public and not at the supermarkets is because we are the end consumer, if we don't know how pigs are farmed we won't give it a second thought when we buy pork, if we do know and decide that we don't agree with it then demand for free range pork will go up, so in turn the supermarket will stock more, then more free range farms will be set up, once more are farmed this way then supply will catch up with demand and the price will fall, etc etc...it's basics economics. Oh and one last thing, we watched a video at college that showed pigs and chickens taken out of factory farms and put in a free range situation, at first they were freaked out, most had never seen daylight before let alone been able to move freely, but after only a short amount of time they began to display normal patterns of behaviour, rather than the obsessive repetitive behaviour that they display in factory farms, the chickens grew back feathers and it was amazing to see. They should piglets in a concrete small dark pen that went from attacking each other cos they had nothing else to do to running around outside playing together like we are led to believe farms are like when we are kids. So, anyway, yeah I am anti them being farmed in this way. And in case anyone's wants to know, no I am not a tree hugging vegan but I do believe animals should be treated well whilst alive, it's the least we can do before we eat them or use them for other purposes. -------------
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Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 12:51pm
Perhaps what she meant to say was that the farmer wasn't doing anything illegal - immoral perhaps, but not illegal My two cents - I have heard that the information about pig farms has been misrepresented - as in - yes they use sow crates, but ratehr than the sows being in their permanently, they are rotated - this is supposed to be to protect the animals from themselves. something organic farmers have commented on is that the pigs get quite violent. The problem i have is that we as NZers will get all up in arms about how poorly the pigs are treated, but god forbid we have to pay more for our bacon. As for me, I rarely buy pork, so when i do, i am happy to buy free range. and I',m planning on trying free range chicken after everyone said how nice it was. I also buy free- range eggs, however, we are in a good place financially. if i wasn;t, I would be more concrend about economics than animal welfare. |
Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 2:24pm
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I'll come back I think, because I have plenty to say here (my dad has a free-range pig farm), but for now I'll say this:
I have 6 pigs on my lifestyle block and I think they are very well cared for. They are my pets as well as production animals. My pigs have big paddocks to roam in and a wallow and a house etc. They eat grass and I feed them once a day with various supplementary feeds. When they see me come near the feed sheds (even if they've already been fed and should know I won't be feeding them again) they come running up to the gate and start salivating (just like pavlov's dogs). If I don't come quick enough to feed them, they start squealing awfully - you'd think I was torturing them. Sometimes they bite the bars on the gate. So you could say they chew bars, froth at the mouth (with so much saliva) and scream a tortured scream. And why? Because they want to be fed. [For the record they are on the plump side, and certainly aren't starving each day at feeding time, just greedy]. So all of those behaviours those pigs showed were just normal attention-seeking behaviour of pigs hoping to be fed. It was just media hype to personify that to indicate "tortured pigs." I'm certainly not saying I agree with the sow crates, although I understand the implications of the alternatives, but the behaviour those pigs showed really wasn't indicative of them being tortured, just that someone had showed up who might feed them. Oh, and my pigs struggle to break even (even when I had more of them) under the system I have, and I certainly wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't for the enjoyment I get out of them as pets. ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 24 May 2009 at 7:32pm
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I found the whole thing pretty fascinating and I think it raises a lot of questions.
I did see the oprah show and was interested in the argument put over by farmers about why they should be able to keep pigs/chickens in small cages, it was interesting to hear them say that if they were forced to go to bigger sizes basically they would have to put their prices up and then customers would end up turning to cheaper imported meat from other countries that don't have the same restrictions, which would then drive them out of business. So I can actually see both sides of the argument for once, not saying I think its right but would worry that we would put local farmers out of business unless there was enough demand. I am going to look at the price of free range bacon and have another think about it. We do buy free range eggs and this week are trying free range chicken. ------------- 
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Posted By: Babe
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 10:08am
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I totally agree with cuppatea on this! Pigs, chickens or any other animals should absolutely not be treated like that. Doesn't matter if they're well fed or whatever, restricting their movements is inhumane! I don't eat pork generally and I buy from our butcher who has free-range on the odd occasion that I do. We're on a fairly tight budget but IMO I'd rather go without than settle for pork/chicken/eggs/any other kind of meat where the animals were kept like this.
I honesty don't understand how it can be cheaper to treat them like this rather than free-range. If it were cattle or sheep it wouldn't be viable at all so I don't know why chickens and pork can't be treated a little better. -------------   
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Posted By: Turtle
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 12:50pm
| I am in agreement with cuppatea and Babe. We have been eating free range pork and chicken for a number of years. If I can't afford to buy free range one week, then we don't eat meat, we eat vegetarian meals instead or beef. If anyone is interested in a really good program regarding free range chickens vs caged chickens, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall did a program which was screened in the UK at the beginning of last year (not sure if it was screened in NZ?). He kept free range and caged chickens in the industry standards for each and you were able to see the difference between the animals. |
Posted By: Babe
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 1:40pm
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We're buying caged chickens to add to our lot and they're bald and don't lay. After 6 weeks being freeranged (well they're in our large chicken run) they'll be beginning to grow their feathers and starting to lay again. Its so cool to see! They're happy and healthy and their eggs are huge and delicious!! -------------
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Posted By: noisybaby
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 1:51pm
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So what is a better solution then. We stop buying pork which results in pig farmers closing down. Jobs and money to the economy lost. More people on the dole cause they can't get jobs because the economy is shot and instead of Nz farmers making profits we import pork, chicken or whatever and possibly infect our country with diseases and god knows what from overseas. You would never know how those animals overseas where treated, it could be worse then they are here. The doco raised many questions regarding the pig farming industry. You can't go and make your decisions by what you saw as its only one side. If it hadn't been aired in the first place, would you have been any the wiser??
I agree pigs or any other animals have the right to be treated humanely. Apparently they are being raised legally but who dictates what humane for a pig. No one asked them how they like to live or be treated. The powers that be just assume thats "humane" and legal and within their guidelines. I'd be more interested as to how they are killed then raised. Is that done humanely?? Buy organic/free range if it makes you feel better but at the end of the day, either way they have been raised to be eaten. Heres a thought for you. Have you ever wondered how your vegetables have been grown or treated before they make it to your table??? |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 2:04pm
This made me LOL IRL 
Babe I so wanted my mum to get some of those chickens for her place - we were going to give her chickens and the setup for her birthday. But she's gone off the idea now and I'm so bummed. I'd have chickens if I had a big enough land area. -------------  
 
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Posted By: Turtle
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 2:42pm
No, the better solution is now that people are aware of the situation there will hopefully be more people who buy free-range meat. I am sure many farmers would love to raise their animals in this way but there has not been the demand for the product before now. If we all support the industry then more farmers can run their farm this way. New Zealand will hopefully introduce mandatory food labelling and you will be able to tell NZ products and support the local farmers. I would not buy meat if I was in doubt of the origin. |
Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 3:40pm
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The thing that really irks me about "free range" is that the definitions are so vague. My dads place is what I'd classify as truely free range - the pigs have a huge area to roam and they have trees and grass and spend most of the day foraging and wallowing and just doing happy pig things.
But free range just means not enclosed. I've seen so many awful free range places that honestly, I'd rather be an indoor pig. I went to a place the other day where the pigs were in paddocks that were totally churned to mud, and they were obviously like that all year (I'd hate to see them in August). The pigs had a house and a small concrete feed pad they could stand on, but otherwise they had to get wet legs standing up to their bellies in mud. At least most intensive piggeries are clean and dry and there is plenty of feed available. So to me, buying free-range isn't really much better. If you are really concerned, I'd purchase from a named pig farm (not just generic "free range"), and go and have a look for yourself at how the pigs live. I have a pig that spent his first year in a piggery before I bought him. The first day I let him outside, he was so excited and ran around exploring stuff, much like a young piglet when they first venture out of their nest. But after a half hour or so, he settled down to eating and became just like my other pigs. The only difference is that he's bred for indoors and he really struggles without heating in winter (he has a house, and hay to sleep in, but its not enough. He needs more fat cover and a lot more hair). So just tossing all those indoor pigs outdoors won't work. There would need to be a change in the breeding objectives (which can happen) but it would take several generations to really kick in, so it wouldn't happen overnight. For me, I get my pork from my own paddock and I know its lived a very happy life. But if I didn't have that option, and couldn't source pigs from someone I knew, I'd still purchase NZ pork (but not overseas pork). Also, have a look at what is happening in the UK. Indoor pig farming has been outlawed, and piggeries are going under all over the country, because consumers are simply buying imported cheaper pork, raised indoors. If we really want to see a good change in NZ, imported pork needs to stop, and then farmers can move to less intensive systems because they will be able to put the price up. And we'll all have to pay more for our bacon. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Mum_mum
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 4:51pm
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Not getting into everything else but had to laugh that all pork was on special at pak and save yesterday and they had masses of it.... to be honest, seeing the doco did put me off a little in eating it and i didnt buy pork this week and will probably look out for free-range pork next time.
------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
 Angel baby - May 2008
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 6:16pm
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i suppose thats why i was so shocked about the whole thing. i make a special effort to only buy nz pork and bacon assuming it was farmed in a way i agree more with. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 6:42pm
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Yeah it would be ideal if it could be spca approved as well as saying that it was free range. This is what I always looked for in the UK as some of the free range chicken farms were as bad if not worse than the caged ones as they just had masses of chickens crammed into a coup, so technically they were free as they weren't caged but in reality they still had no room to move.
The other problem of course is all the things that pig products are in and only a teeny proportion if any would be from free range pigs. I'm talking pet foods etc, so it makes it really hard to be entirely free range about it, but then if the only pork that sells is free range stuff then I suppose all the by products would by default end up being from free range sources as well. I"m sure there was something else I was gonna say damn toddler and baby brain...lol-------------
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Posted By: FionaO
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 6:55pm
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I agree cuppatea, when in the uk we tried to buy free range, and then it turned out free range didn't really mean free range and I just felt like it was getting really silly.
There was a Jamie Oliver programme a while ago that showed how hard it was even if you studied the label to make sure you were buying good meat, so many stickers etc misleading you on purpose. -------------
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Posted By: pepsi
Date Posted: 25 May 2009 at 7:45pm
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I think it's great that so many of you have experience with farm animals and can share your information with us who only see what's on tv.
One thing that I can't help but wonder is how many people who say they will ONLY buy free range from now on..will actually do it, I guess, forever? And not just for the next couple of months while the news story is hot. (Not meaning people here on this board, but people in general who say it after seeing the news story).. Personally, it saddens me to hear of animals being mistreated, but at the same time, I know it won't effect my shopping habits. I won't pretend that it will. Maybe in my next lifetime I'll come back at a battery hen as punishment.. |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 26 May 2009 at 6:50am
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Dammit, I missed this thread until now I have strong feelings (in some areas, anyway).
There were a couple of things that they showed on TV that were a bit disturbing. The pig with overgrown trotters, for example, or the other sow that was lying down and looked pretty crook. The crook sow is probably something you'd get on any farm at some time (we get sick... pigs do too) but those trotters should have been looked at for sure! BUT the ridiculous over-dramatisation that TV one gave it made me so frustrated. T_Rex gave a great example, so I'll quote it...
That 'tortured screaming' they kept talking about? That's. Just. Normal. Pig. Noise. Full stop!!!! Mum and Dad have free-range pigs, and they make the same noises when they're hungry or you disturb them. Obviously none of the people working on that programme had ever heard a pig in distress!!!! My cousins have a piggery (a very small one). For most of their lives, the pigs get to run round and wallow in mud to their hearts content. A few days before they're due to have piglets, they take them into the shed where it's warm and dry, and put them in a crate so they don't squash the poor little things when they have them. No, they can't trun round, but they seriously don't seem to mind. They lay flopped on their side feeding their wee piggies making the odd contended grunt, for most of the part. They'll hop up and make a racket at feeding time, or if you disturb them, but that's about it. And once the piglets are big, they go back out to the paddock (where they roll in mud and look disgustingly cared for, unless you realise that that's what they do by choice). Anyway, my basic opinion is that TV One had some OK points... there were some things (like those overgrown trotters) that aren't good. I don't like the idea of pigs being treated like that. But they ruined the story with poor research and over-dramatisation. Seriously... now I don't know what to think of stories they run. If they can't take a couple of moments to research what a happy, healthy pig sounds like, how much truth is in any of their other news stories? -------------   
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