The BIG Vaccination debate...
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Topic: The BIG Vaccination debate...
Posted By: Basil_brush
Subject: The BIG Vaccination debate...
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 10:21am
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There might be a thread on this already? but anyway here goes...
I have a lovely 15 week old daughter who is breast fed and very healthy. I wasn't sure about the vaccination issue and decided not to get her 6 week injections as I felt she was low risk being EBF etc. She had both jabs at 12 weeks but I was very uncomfortable about it, having done a lot of reading over the immunisation debate in the interim. I am now seriously thinking about not vaccinating her again but it is a really taboo subject when brought up in person with other mums. I am really keen to generate some genuine discussion on this, and hear views particularly from anyone who has decided not to and the sorts of issues that come up eg at kindy. My daughter is not in day care and nor do I plan to at this stage but likely we will be keen to send her before she starts school. At the heart of it all is that I do want to do the best for my little girl as I'm sure we all do... so please, no judging 
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Replies:
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 11:17am
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really it's a personal decision and so you need to do what you feel is right for your daughter...for me personally(and just my personal opinion I'm not judging anyone who doesn't ) it was very important to me to get him vaccinated. We got them all and got them on time because for me I wanted to do all I could to prevent him getting diseases in such a serious way and ones like Rubella are not caught by vaccinated children.
Even if they don't go to daycare they are around other kids and coffee groups and other sorts of places like that and for me I wanted him to have as much protection as I could offer him. It's such a hard topic I guess because people tend to have strong views one way or the other and it's hard for that not to be taken the wrong way. But as I said before this is just my personal view for myself and my children. ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 11:23am
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After doing alot of research I have decided not to vaccinate my son (he has the 6 week and 3month prevenar one only)
There was a 98% decrease of infectious diseases before vaccinations were introduced. I don't like the idea of totally bypassing an infants immune system (nose and throat) and injecting directly into the bloodstream There is alot of information on this site www.forums.beyondvaccination.com and you can also email lithgowcrew@windowslive.com for a free dvd on vaccination. It is really informative and all the sources are named. It is a really personal hard choice though. ------------- 
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Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 11:29am
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the other things is there are lots of sites that are for and lots against and they are biased one way or the other and i found that hard..
I don't want to debate but while I do understand how some people are for natural immunity I have also seen how awful some of the diseases are without vaccination (whooping cough ,, measles etc) and with every person who doesn't the rates come down and the fighting against these awful diseases continues:( the prevenar for example I am sure if one of the reasons my child has never had any ear issues and for that I am very thankful. anyway as I said I respect people who are either way ...your child your decision..:) ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Basil_brush
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 11:37am
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Thanks heaps Kellie - my concern is that the research I have read seems to suggest vaccination isn't the best way to protect them. So I appreciate the references to look a bit more at that.
I also really don't like what I read and hear about unreported reactions. Have you had any negative feedback ? How do you respond? |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:09pm
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I have had a little bit of negative feedback, nothing too bad. Mostly just from family members. I just pointed out to them it is my choice, and I have actually researched the subject.
5 days after receiving his 3month prevenar shot my son came down with a temperature of 39.9 and had what appeared to be a seizure. Spent most of the day at the hospital to be told by the pead it was most likely a reaction to the vaccination--but on his file it went down as a mild cold. He didn't have any cold symptoms. I questioned him on this and he said that since it was 5 days later they couldn't officially link it to the vaccine, but that the delayed reaction is quite common. I think this is why alot of the reactions are not reported as a reaction |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:11pm
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sorry was just giving my reasons..didnt realise you were after others who were the same..sorry.. there are about 4 or 5 non vaccinating people on here so I'm sure they will post soon:) ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Peanut
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:13pm
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I personally wish I had looked into it more! As someone that has a nursing background, I was always going to vaccinate. I did all the initial ones and had a major freak out prior to the 15 month ones and at that pointed started doubting myself and my decision.
I think initially it was easier to agree with the med professionals as I was too overwhelmed by everything to research it all. I stopped him getting the MenzB one after his first 2 as found out that it was (in my opinion) a pointless vaccine for my child. I wish I had researched more prior to having a child and admire people who have taken the time and effort to do that. I also think as long as you are making an informed decision based on your research and you are comfortable with it, then its your choice to make! I am now in two minds about vaccinating #2 as almost feel that perhaps if one is and one isn't, then it looks like I cared about one more than the other as bothered to research it etc...You can't win!! -------------  
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Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:15pm
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so what makes you question it now peanut? ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:31pm
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We have not vaccinated either and I know wish I hadn't vaccinated my pets either, cos they are just as bad.
Anyway I don't have the time or energy to go into everything as I have two sick kids, a husband who has man flu and the distinct feeling in my stomach that my 2yr old has given me his tummy bug. We did loads of research, tons and tons and I agonised for some time over what to do, DH came to the conclusion not to do them a lot quicker than I did but I was still reading stuff in the days before having Spencer and only made a decision about Vit K the day before he was born. We have had no real issues about not doing them, apart from one nurse giving me an earful at Kyle's 3 month check up, so that was easy I choose not to see the nurse again at his 5 month one and just saw the GP instead. Our GP supports out decision, plunket have never had a problem with it either and Spencer was in daycare for a little while and they didn't care either. I did have to sign something to say he wasn't vaccinated but that is just so they know who is and who isn't, it's not to exclude anyone. HTH and good luck with your decision ------------- 
 
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Posted By: Peanut
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:40pm
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KA, to answer your question, I am not really sure. Just a gut feeling really. The more interested I got in the vaccine discussions etc the more I realised that I had blindly vaccinated my child because "it was the right thing to do" and "its your duty as it protects other kids". I was especially annoyed when finding out about the Menz B vaccine and how a huge percentage of kids were never immune after vaccines. I wish I had known that at the time and I would have opted out all together from the start.
I wish in NZ you could seperate vaccines without the extra cost extra as there are some that are non-neg for me and ones that I could give and take. For example HepB, it is my understanding that the immunity of that has worn off by the time the child reaches adolescents which is when they are more at risk of contracting HepB so why immunise at such a young age etc. I may be completely wrong with me info but wish I had researched it more when I was pregnant not after the fact! -------------
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Posted By: Basil_brush
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 12:59pm
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I really appreciate everyone's honesty.
I agree with comments from people who vaccinate when they say they want to protect their children from getting these diseases. I'm just not convinced that any decent scientific literature supports this to be the best way to do it, but My Goodness it's a can of worms if you choose not to!!!!! Jury's still out for now, she's not actually "due" for a few weeks anyway. Thanks again. |
Posted By: Red
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:02pm
| You can get homeopathic vaccines as well which is another option. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:06pm
That's interesting, do you have any other info on these that I could look at, like a website? -------------
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Red wrote:Posted By: kebakat
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:07pm
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I did the general vaccines but I was always iffy about the menzb one, mostly because it was a new vaccine and I didn't like the stories I had heard about kids who had been vaccinated and still got it. So we delayed that one by 5 months and then didn't like his reaction to it so decided against finishing the course. I'm glad I did the other standard ones though.
I'm even thinking of vaccinating myself for chicken pox! |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:18pm
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thanks for explaining peanut i just wondered.. i am lucky in that E never had any issues with them and i must admit i didnt research the menz one..but am comfortable with the rest of my decision. ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:28pm
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I blindly chose to vaccinate as I was allergice to the Triple Antigen and as such contracted Whooping Cough at 4 years of age. I actually remember how sick I was and how lucky I am to still be here.
I could never be brave enough to not vaccinate, the fear of my child contracting one of these diseases and dying is to strong. Wouldnt mind some info on the homeopathic stuff either Red. This one is right up there on the debate scale as BF or FF. At the end of the day, you do what you believe is the best thing for your child and sod everyone else! -------------   
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Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 1:46pm
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I chose to vaccinate, with Maya purely coz it was the done thing, but with the other three because I had done substantial research of my own before making a decision. The gremlins have an unspecified non-syndromic immune deficiency so we have given them extra vaccines in addition to the main schedule - Pneumovax and the flu vaccine. Having seen how sick they were for most of last year, I'd do anything to even reduce it by a fraction.
Completely aside from the immunisation debate, don't rely on exclusive breastfeeding to keep bubs healthy. Yes, it does have fantastic benefits, including to the immune system, but Chiara was 100% exclusively breastfed to 6 mths, and continues to have breastmilk as her sole "milk" source alongside solids, and yet in her first 11-mths of life she has had pneumonia, five lots of bronchiolitis and chickenpox. Sometimes, no matter what we do, our bubs are going to get sick. -------------  Maya Grace (28/02/03)
 (02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: surfergirl
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 2:48pm
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I am looking into this now. I *think* I will be looking at this on a case-by-case, illness-by-illness basis. Luckily I will be able to afford the separate vaccines if I decide I want one, but not the others they may be grouped with. I know my MIL is very pro vaccine, but I'm from an imm free family. The only imms I have had have been as an adult (for overseas travel and rubella). I think as long as you make an informed decision then you should feel happy. Also, I think it's OK to change your mind. Good luck! ------------- http://www.alterna-tickers.com"> 
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Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 26 June 2009 at 3:01pm
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Regarding the homeopathics, you can find one near you on this site http://www.homeopathy.co.nz/
Just send a few an email explaining that you are looking for vaccination alternatives, you can tell from their reply which ones will be most helpful, thats what i have done -------------
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: 27 June 2009 at 4:56pm
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Just curious...what is it that is making you hesitate? Is it the possible reactions, or something more sinister???
I have chosen to immunise both my children and will with the next one also. I feel that getting the disease is much worse than any reactions my children may have. So far they haven't had any reactions. I didn't get the menzb... One of the girls in my coffee group has opted to not vaccinate her boy and currently they both have whooping cough rather badly :o( I support her decision...but it is awful to see them suffering when they could have avoided being so sick. Its your decision in the end and as the mother of your child, you are the one that knows what is best for them. Good luck ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 27 June 2009 at 9:41pm
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My first reason for hesitating was gut feelings mostly. Then I did some research.
The whooping cough vaccine is actually not very effective. During an outbreak you will find the majority affected are vaccinated (this is only because the majority of children are vaccinated) It is like this overseas too. In areas where there is a 98% of people vaccinated they still have outbreaks every 3 years or so. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 28 June 2009 at 8:30am
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I believe it is better to build up a natural immunity by being exposed to diseases and fighting them off the way nature intended, the way vaccines are currently they bypass a major part of the immune system, the mucous part, and that is creating problems. Currently research is being done in to oral vaccines for this reason.
Scarlett fever cases have fallen at the same rate as all other childhood diseases and there is no vaccine for that, better nutrition, living conditions, and education are far bigger contributors to the reduction in childhood diseases than vaccines. Being vaccinated does not stop your child from getting the disease, they should just be able to recognise and fight it off quicker, most vaccines wear off allowing the once immunised child to catch the disease as an adult when the consequences are more serious. There has been links made between SIDS and the vaccines, the Japanese no longer immunise under 2's and they have practically no cases of SIDS. Plus do you know what is actually in the injections, personally I have moral issues with how they make the vaccines and I am also concerned about a lot of the other ingredients. I go out of my way to make sure my children aren't given preservatives and colourings etc but what is in the vaccines is far far worse. -------------
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 29 June 2009 at 10:31pm
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Aarrgh I am stressing so badly about this I just feel like if I have my baby vaccinated, it'll only be because society and family etc are telling me to...not because it's something I strongly believe in. We did eventually go ahead with the Vit K...but did it orally and over a longer period. I was the only one in my ante natel coffee group who gave it to their baby this way. It's like everyone I know in real life (except my work...they're total hippies lol) is just blindly accepting what we are told by the medical profession without question. I just wish I didn't have these doubts that vaccination is *not* the right choice for my wee girl.... -------------   http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Surely that's the wrong reason to have it done?? Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 29 June 2009 at 11:47pm
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Caden had the Vit K injection, due to the hidious labour I had.
As for vaccination, I never considered not doing it. ------------- |
Posted By: JessDub
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 1:35pm
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Like Sheza, I never not considered vaccinating. I don't want my son to catch diseases that killed children in the days before immunisation.
The diseases do still exist, and you get outbreaks in areas where people get lax about vaccination. ------------- 
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Posted By: lisa85
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 2:31pm
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We weren't going to vaccinate. Jess comes from a very natural family and he was never vaccinated. As a result he is also very firm in his anti-vaccine ways. I personally was always for vaccinating. But have always understood it's a very taboo subject lol.
In the end we decided to vaccinate only because I stopped BF at 1 month and we heard there were cases of whopping cough and mumps going around CHCH. What I've be told is mumps can cause retardation in infants. I weighed it up and it seemed more likely for them to catch something sinister than to have a bad reaction to a vaccine. You don't have to have them right on the time advised and you can pick and chose which to have. We felt our girls were too small at 6 weeks so we started them a month later than we were told to. Also while we have done all other vaccinations we are still undecided about the 15 month jabs. We possibly won't be doing those. Best of luck whatever you choose. There is far to much hype regarding both sides of the argument but go with what you feel is right. -------------  
TTC #3 since Jan 2010 - PCOS MC April 2010 |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 3:24pm
I wouldn't say a lot of peopel blindly accept it..while i didn't research a whole lot i knew what i wanted and why .... but having said that you make the decisions for your child ...i know how hard parental influence can be though !:) ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 3:25pm
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as far as vit k i did reasearch that a lot and found the injection was more effective and the link that was suggested to issues hadn't been proven so i did it. ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Babe
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 3:55pm
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Jake had the vit k orally too. I personally don't see the point in doing the needle if it can be avoided.
I also made the decision not to immunise because a. me, my bro and sister weren't imm'd (as a newborn I had a seizure and the hospital told mum to avoid the early imms as the chances of me developing epilepsy if I was imm'd were very high ((hmm what does that say about the imms!!!)) so mum decided against doing it for all of us), b. it ups the possibility of SIDS, c. it can have drastic effects on your child (case in point my friends child had her imms and overnight went from being a relaxed, happy baby who slept really well to a clingy, withdrawn child who at now 2 and a half still doesn't sleep properly) and d. the effectiveness isn't balanced out by the risks as far as I'm concerned. The only one I'd like him to have is polio as its proven to be safe and effective. I had mild measles, whooping cough, chickenpox, and all the other normal childhood bugs all before I was 5 and was healthy as afterwards. A friends child has been fully immunised and just got admitted to hospital with an awful case of whooping cough so y'know whats the point of putting my child through the jabs if they're gonna get it anyway and possible worse??!! I've had no probs with anyone (mainly coz I get a particular look in my eye if anyone even begins to question my choice haha), Plunket has been great, the different docs we've had have been awesome and hes in daycare for a couple of mornings a week and they just got me to fill out a form. I wondered if it would be more of an issue but I figured if I stated that he wasn't immunised like it was perfectly normal and keep moving through the conversation then people would respond the sam way and its worked so far  Number 2 will also be jab-free. I second everyone else - make the decision you're most comfortable with and remember you can change your mind if you decide no imms then rethink it
ETA: Just because something isn't 'proven' to have bad side-effects at this time doesn't mean it doesn't. Look at that drug that all those preg mums were being given in the 70s (have I got my dates right? I'm sure it was before I was born). The amount of babies born with severe defects and issues were huge! The drug ended up being banned. Thats precisely the reason I don't do imms. There are enough question marks out there that I'm not willing to risk my babies safety on something that isn't even 100% effective. JMHO -------------   
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Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 4:05pm
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Emmecat you don't need to start them at 6 weeks if you are still unsure. There is no medical reason for starting them at 6 weeks and it's the interval between jabs that is more important than the start date if you do decide to get them done.
With the vit K, we didn't give it to Spencer but we did give it to Kyle (injection) as he was vontouse and also had a large bruise from being rammed against my 3cm dilated cervix for hours so the benefits in the case out weighed the risks. -------------
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Posted By: Shezamumof3
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 5:37pm
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Yeah thats pretty much the reason we did the vit k injection as well Marissa. Caden had been trying to come down for ages and got stuck and then there was a large amount of meconuim in the waters, so the benefits definitely out weighed the risks in our case too. ------------- |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 7:08pm
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Us too. We were going to just give vit k orally, but ended up having ventouse. -------------
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Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 8:06pm
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Just briefly,
We now have all our kids vaccinated but we started late because we weren't sure at first. There are no issues with enrolling at daycares etc without immunisations, if there is an outbreak they will just do their best to contact you first. A lot of the "against" material we read was very old, older than some of the vaccinations. So when we were ready, we went to our GP armed with a list of questions. He was very helpful. Only one of our girls had Vit K, we only do it if specially recommended, e.g. in her case, a c/s. ------------- |
Posted By: Maya
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 8:30pm
Don't immunise just because everyone else is telling you to. Yes, I am pro-immunisation, but I am also very much pro-informed decision making. Do some research, read up on both sides of the argument and then you'll feel comfortable with whichever decision you make knowing the reasons why that choice was right for you and Clodagh.
This isn't right, the reason the schedule starts at 6 weeks is because the effects of the immunisations are cumulative so several doses are required to reach full immunity, and by starting at 6 weeks, the child is still protected by maternal antibodies while the immunisations and other factors work to build the child's own immunity. The first curve on this chart shows how the child's own antibodies accumulate as maternal antibodies reduce in an infant that commenced the schedule at 6 weeks. 
I didn't know this when I had the gremlins and I chose to delay the gremlins MenzB ones as I was unsure about them. In the end they did have them, but I am a bit annoyed that we weren't told at the time that it was only a temporary addition to the schedule as that might have affected my decision, and I think IMAC were less than transparent about that particular vaccine, it's effectiveness and the duration of the campaign from the outset. Edited because I am a dork and didn't add the image 
------------- Maya Grace (28/02/03)
(02/01/06)
The Gremlins:Sienna Marie & Mercedes Kailah (14/10/06)
Lil miss:Chiara Louise Chloe (09/07/08)
Her ladyship:Rosalia Sophie Anais (18/06/12)
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Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 30 June 2009 at 10:22pm
Just do some research and go with your gut feelings. If you want some info PM me, I have alot I can send you. Fear has been instilled in people to vaccinate. We don't give enough credit to our babies natural immune systems. -------------
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Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 01 July 2009 at 7:33am
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as far as preschool non-immunised children are sent home if there is ,say an outbreak of whooping cough, until the outbreak is over.. and that is why we (teachers) need to know.. though i hadn't come across anyone who wasnt immunised in my teaching and the vast majority made informed decisions..i just don't think that most people do it through fear... (though i did come across a number of children with no menzb)
------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: Basil_brush
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 2:52pm
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There is a book called "Just a Litte Prick" that is worth reading if you are wanting some info on why people might choose not to vaccinate.
Also - remember when you are researching that a lot of the easily accesible published data is pro-vaccine and is financed by vaccine companies or others with vested interests. I have found several errors in sources they cite (some data is even fabricated - I would never have gotten away with this at uni!!!) so am now very wary of claims they make. I have found it all very scare mongery from both sides actually - a lot of "look what happens if you do/don't vaccinate" . I think that no matter what side we're on, most of us agree we just want to protect our children!!!! And if we ask these questions and have the debates, then we can feel comfortable with our decisions. Reading the reasons why other people make their decisions has really helped cement mine. |
Posted By: queenb
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 5:20pm
We aren't immunising our babygirl. Got given a guilt trip at her 6week check from the doc  went on about a mumps/measle outbreak in South Auckland (we live central) and then went oh, not that she'll get that vaccine yet anyway. wtf!? Then proceeded to warn me not to go to busy areas where strangers would poke their head in the pram and spread germs. Ummmm... I don't see my baby as a novelty for people to grab and breathe on, vaccinated or not vaccinated.
But either way I believe in making an informed decision
------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: queenb
Date Posted: 02 July 2009 at 5:22pm
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oh just to add, we had a home waterbirth, no vit k or heel prick test. So miss Layla hasn't experienced any "pain" as yet ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 5:01pm
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I kind of wish we hadn't had the Guthrie test at home too.....it took 2 pricks and Clodagh screamed her head off...and I bawled my eyes out! Kellie- thanks for sending me that stuff (well thanks in advance lol) Basil- I'll look out for that book too. Thanks heaps ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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I may be a big sook but I don't like seeing her in pain, even if she won't remember it! Posted By: queenb
Date Posted: 03 July 2009 at 9:03pm
Had a check today with a Karitane nurse, who proceeded to warn me about the whooping cough "epidemic" and that I should at least get Layla immunised for this one (said in a condescending tone ....) She asked why we chose not to imms, I said because I read too much, half jokingly, and she goes "oh yeah they like to scare you". I went um no, I read facts and research ... She finally conceded, and said well you know best, you are the parent ... EXACTLY 
Emmecat, good luck with making your decision, just know you'll make the right one for Clodagh, either way, as you and your DH have put alot of thought into it  Oh and I so know how you must've felt, that's why I didn't want to have any invasive "tests" just because it's the done thing. If Layla's birth had any complications I would've considered testing, but it went as planned ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: QHX
Date Posted: 04 July 2009 at 8:21pm
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I am pro natural immunity rather than anti immunisation and still I was shocked with the horror stories and guilt trips I was subjected to taking my dd for her 6 week check up with the gp.
We are lucky to live in the age of google so there is little excuse for uninformed choices. Do what is right for your family, based on the information you have available and remember you can always change your mind and immunise later on, it is much harder to change your mind and un-immunise. It is also great to see an immunisation debate that isn't loaded with guilt and fear and misinformation. It is a very emotive issue and rarely is it discussed without getting heated. |
Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 05 July 2009 at 6:14pm
I'd say being born is pretty 'painful' for a baby
I think you need to read what you can and then make your decision. Once you make your decision stick by it and know its the best decision you could of made at that time. Also don't listen to ridiculour stories of your friends, aunties, neighbours child. Look at statistics rather than individual stories. Good luck
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Posted By: lisa85
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 8:40am
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Just to let people know I saw on the news last night theres been some confirmed cases of measles in CHCH. We didn't want to get the girls immunized but there were cases of mumps in CHCH when the girls were born so decided to go ahead with it, as mumps in infants (So I was told anyway) can cause retardation in by swelling the brain. I admit I haven't gotten into the research as much as some here seem to have but it seemed to me that it was far more likely for the girls to catch mumps or measles than to have a reaction to the shots. We do seem to be seeing things like mumps and measles making more frequent appearances now that so many are not immunizing.
I guess there are so so many reasons for and against both ends of the debate. -------------
TTC #3 since Jan 2010 - PCOS MC April 2010 |
Posted By: pepsi
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 9:56am
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Here is the article on the Christchurch outbreak.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/2566930/Measles-outbreak-at-boys-school - Full Story |
Posted By: lisa85
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 10:18am
Scary stuff  The girls are due for their MMR shot next month we have done all shots up to this point but were considering not doing that one. May now rethink though....
-------------
TTC #3 since Jan 2010 - PCOS MC April 2010 |
Posted By: lemongirl
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 12:13pm
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Disclaimer, I'm only a stepmother to a 5 year old and am having trouble deciding what to do with an unplanned pregnancy but I'll add my $.20 cents to the mix.
In general my approach to parenting decisions (breastfeeding, co-sleeping, homeschooling, etc) is that I think you have to figure out what works best for you and your children and ignore all the people who are screaming at you that you're doing it wrong. However when it comes to vaccinations I have a very different stance. The problem with the ' do what's right for me an my lot' approach is that as the number of parents who choose not to vaccinate their children increases so does the likelihood that these diseases will become a problem again. If you've decided that the risks are too great to vaccinate your child then you are counting on the rest of us who are willing to take those risks to decrease the chances that your child will be exposed to these diseases. As Lisa mentioned, there's already been outbreaks in New Zealand of preventable diseases. While a case of the measles might not be so bad for older children, it could be potentially fatal for an infant whose immune system just isn't developed enough to fight the illness. Imagine if your child was the one the who caught the illness because another parent refused to vaccinate or even worse, you are the parent of a child infected possibly fatally others with the disease. Could you live with yourself? The best place to get more information about vaccinations isn't from crazy whackos like me on the internet but from your local doctor. Bring up your concerns and have then talk them through, as it isn't just your kid that's affected by your decision. It's all of us. |
Posted By: lisa85
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 12:20pm
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I agree with asking your doctor. Due to moving a couple of times the girls have had 3 doctors so far and each one has had kids of their own. Out of interest I asked all 3 if they had vaccinated their children. All 3 have. Personally I figure if a medical professional is willing to vaccinate their own children then they are probably better placed than anyone to make a fully informed decision. Some people may consider doctors to be biased but I believe they are much better educated on the subject then the average joe blogs that looks up info on the net. I would trust them over internet sites that do tend to be biased (one way or the other) any day -------------
TTC #3 since Jan 2010 - PCOS MC April 2010 |
Posted By: Pinkygirl
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 1:15pm
| Newstalk ZB are discussing the topic of vaccinations...quite interesting. |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 2:36pm
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I wouldn't worry to much about the measles outbreak. Last year the same thing happened. They even use the same quote from the same guy in both stories:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/486707 Also, out of the 2, one was vaccinated. The quote from Alistair Humphrey in the 2008 article saying "In 1933 my grandmother came back to school after the holidays to find one-third of her class were dead from measles" Well only 17 people died of measles in 1933, what are the odds most of them came from one class lol. lemongirl, infants don't get the mmr one, you get it at 15months. |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 8:28pm
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Personally, I decided to get both of my babies vaccinated. They have had all of the vaccines that they can get. I'm considering getting Chloe the flu vaccine as well, since it would be funded for her as she has asthma. She has been very unwell this winter and I will do anything I can to prevent her getting sick if she doesn't need to be, especially as she gets huge respiratory problems when she is sick. Thank God for Medicine.
I have done my own research, on top of what I have learned in my biomedical science degree (my major is reproduction and human development) and decided that it was what was in the best interests of my family to do. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 10:09pm
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I have 2 boys and I'm not going to comment on their vaccine status other than to say I couldn't give a toss about anyone else's kids, I only care about mine. Call me selfish, call me irresponsible but that's how I feel.
I have done heaps of research in this area and I have made the decision that is best for us and our family. There is alot of misinformation out there, alot of trying to scare the sh*te out of parents to get them to do what they "should". Has anyone asked themselves why TEENAGERS are getting the measles now? These used to be childhood diseases and now they are being pushed into older populations because of mass vaccination that doesn't last forever. Older kids are more likely to have complications, more likely to be hospitalised etc than a child of say 6 barring any underlying medical conditions. Disease exists, and will exist as long as there are people in the world to infect. Yes some kids will die when they catch them, vaccinated or not, some will have reactions to vaccines but look at WHERE the kids are dying and you will see that your child, especially in a developed country (which we are) ,has a less than 1% chance of dying from the measles, which means that 99% of people who get them will make a full recovery. If you want to vaccinate then do, if you don't then don't, if you want some but not all then do that if it feels right for you and you are willing to live with the consequences of your decision....I don't check the vaccination status of every person I come in contact with and am not naive to think that every person I know has been(or has had their child) vaccinated. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: kiwigal
Date Posted: 06 July 2009 at 11:27pm
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My 6 year old was vaccinated and ended up being diagnosed with autism so after going through hell we were very undecisive when DD came along. Kaitlyn is nearly 10 months and we got the first one done at 5 months but didn't feel comfortable with it so haven't been back since. |
Posted By: Hayzie
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 4:11am
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OK - I can't help it...
I am a doctor and will always vaccinate my children. The problem mumtooboys with not giving a toss about other kids is that your kids are likely to infect our kids! Not all children develop immunity with the vaccination so the vaccines rely on "herd immunity" which doesn't work obviously when the whole "herd" is not immunised. Small pox a formerly deadly disease has all but been eradicated because of good vaccation rates. Also - the chance of a reaction to a vaccine is MUCH much lower than 1%. And unfortunately - you are wrong - the other 99% does not make a "full recovery". Morbidity from measles includes deafness and blindness. There is no scientific evidence to support the hypothesis that the MMR is a cause of autism. I am not trying to convince those that have made an informed choice - but I think its only fair the other side of the argument is presented. The worst reason for not vaccinating is that the parents just can't be bothered. ------------- 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: QHX
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 7:41am
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This herd immunity is a concept I have never really understood, so forgive me if I am a little slow here, but assuming all children were immunised, and if not all children develop immunity via immunisation to some diseases then would they not always be vulnerable regardless of the immunity of the remainder of the herd?
I would genuinely be interested in hearing how this works because the unimmunised have always been blamed for the spread of disease even when kids being hospitalised with illnesses like meningitis and whooping cough are usually immunised. I am not trying to antagonise or stir it up, I would really like to know because it has always seemed like such a feeble argument. We are also in the midst of an autism boom, rates are at an all time high (something like 1 in 67 now) and it is impossible to have a genetic epidemic, so although there is no scientific evidence for autism being a result of immunisation the circumstantial evidence is deafening. And I suspect the rate of parents not immunising their children because they "just cant be bothered" is about as low as death from measles. |
Posted By: lisa85
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 8:18am
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I'm really interested to know if anyone here that's anit-immunisation (or pro-immunity hehe) has studied medicine or science? Not meaning a google degree lol but actually choosen this as a profession? Once again I'm not against not immunising it was the road we had originally planned on taking just curious as I have noticed a couple of professionals a few comments back who are both pro vaccine.
I'm all for not immunising as long as parents are willing for the battle to build natural immunities. There do seem to be people that do it because they can't be bothered or buy into the hype quickly then don't actually do anything to support their kids immunity. If your not immunising you should be totally on board to breastfeed and feed children the best foods available and I don't mean the most expensive jar of baby food lol. I mean good organic produce. Gotta love a good heated debate
FYI - Mumtooboys - good to see an anti-vaccine mum long term breastfeeding -------------
TTC #3 since Jan 2010 - PCOS MC April 2010 |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 10:26am
I agree. At the end of the day if I can prevent my kids from getting a horrid disease causing death or long term suffering I will. And if it helps wipe out these disease by mass vaccinating then I am for it. This is a hot topic, & everyone to there own. When I was pg all I wanted was a healthy baby, & I got that so now I want to keep them that way. |
Posted By: DJ
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 1:10pm
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This is a well timed debate for me.
My story re imms is pretty much the same as Peanut's - DD has had all her imms up until 15mths, but only 2 menzb jabs (I stopped that when they canned the menzb programme and I wish I hadn't given her the first 2- she had v. high temps). I also didn't start her jabs until about 4mths and saw no reason to vaccinate earlier than that. DD has not had the MMR and I don't feel confident about her having it. I phoned the medical centre yesterday after hearing about measles in CHCH and asked if she could have a single measles vaccine rather than the triple, and they said it isn't available (even if I pay). Then this morning, I get a knock on the door from an "outreach" nurse, here to talk to me about vaccinating DD. She reiterated that a single measles vaccine isn't available. My main reason for not wanting DD to have MMR is a gut feeling, but also because I had convulsions after the measles vaccine myself (at 10mths) and my brother and cousin both ended up in hospital with pneumonia after it (that was in the 1970's). For the record, I have a Bachelor of Medical Laboratory Science (similar to Biomedical Science degree) and studied immunology until 3rd year. QHX - herd immunity - imagine there are 20 cows in a paddock and 19 of them have been immunised - those cows are not likely to get disease X, and because they won't get it and spread it, neither will the 20th unimmunised cow (because there isn't any disease X around for it to catch). ETA - the nurse that came to the door today recommended this website - off to have a look now, so not sure what's on it yet http://www.immune.org.nz/ ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 3:33pm
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Regarding herd immunity, the immunity from the vaccine wears off around the teenage years. There are boosters available but I don't know if very many people get them?
So wouldn't this affect the herd immunity? -------------
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Posted By: Georgiegirl
Date Posted: 07 July 2009 at 5:45pm
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What an interesting topic this is... Thanks for starting it Basil....and thank you for all the people contributing... Everyone is so passionate about their babies.... there are some very lucky babies out there with parents who care so much!
There is certainly alot to read and think about... I am trying to learn as much as I can before baby is born.
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Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 1:12pm
What if 1 cow had been immunised & the other 19 had not & the disease was around??? |
Posted By: lemongirl
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 1:36pm
Actually many of the vaccines MMR, Polio, Hep B have life-long immunity. For shorter-life ones you are supposed to get booster shots eg Tetanus. See here: http://www.immune.org.nz/?t=587
The disease could infect the 19 cows who weren't immunized. Herd immunity explained: http://www.immunisation.nhs.uk/About_Immunisation/Science/Herd_immunity_-_animation |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 3:19pm
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Posted By: DJ
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 4:29pm
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The key with herd immunity is for most of the herd (population) to be immunised - disease is more likely to spread thru the herd when there are more unimmunised cows - so yep, Jazzy, if there was only 1 cow in the 20 immunised, very little protection thru herd immunity would be offered to the other 19.
Kellie - you are right, if a vaccine does need a booster, then not having it reduces the protection offered thru herd immunity - because there are then more unimmunised members of the herd. But like lemongirl said - lots of vaccines offer lifelong immunity. Interestingly, while a second MMR "booster" is given at 4-5yrs old, this isn't really a booster - it is just for ensuring that the 2-5% of the population that didn't develop antibodies from the first jab at 15mths get antibodies from the 2nd. Also interesting, there is no herd immunity for tetanus because it isn't transmitted from person to person (its from standing on a rusty nail etc). ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 5:30pm
Me too, though I was with DS2 but my "booster" was only 5 years ago. The thing I find interesting is that a) people think that only UNvaccinated kids spread disease, b) that if the vaccine is supposed to do what it does on the box then vaccinated kids wouldn't get sick and c)that herd immunity IMO is one of those giant urban myths because even when vaccine rates are high, some disease only "require"85% that those same diseases are still found in those communities; I've even read about a community that had 100% coverage and they still had measles outbreaks. To answer another question I don't have a science or medical background, but that doesn't mean that I am incapable of deciphering data and deciding what sounds more plausible to me. Drs aren't gods, they aren't infallible and they don't have all the answers all the time to everything in the universe. I think the biggest issue is doing one thing or ther other without thought; so because "everyone I know who got vaccinated is fine" or "my kid got autism after the MMR". There's ALOT of info out there and you can't just read one side or the other and you can't limit the research to just the stats of the diseases; I looked at immunology and the history of disease and how our minds and our body's affect how/when or if we get sick etc. It's an ever changing journey where I am always looking for new things to read and for every question I get answered I have about 10 more in it's place. People are going to get sick, as long as there are people on the planet and I try and prevent that in the best way I can while understanding that I can't stop them from not ever getting sick....no matter how much I might want to. I don't feel that MASS vaccination is working, and I don't want to being injecting stuff into myself and/or my kids from cradle to grave to try and stop something that can't be stopped; if others want to do that then that's fine, got no problem with it. What I do have a problem with is people insisting there is only ONE way to protect our kids. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: busyissy
Date Posted: 08 July 2009 at 9:43pm
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I find this a fastinating topic and it is one I debate everytime the vaccinations come up.
My question goes back a bit to the vaccine causing autism debate. My understanding was that in cases where a child was diagnosed with autism (after previously not having any symptoms) after being vaccinated was because they were using mercury as a perservative in the vaccines. Does anyone know if this is true? And if so are they still using mercury as a preservative? As to the current debate over herd immunisation working or not and why we keep having outbreaks of diseases that we vaccinate for...these disease are living organisms (virus or bacteria) and they are constantly evolving, like all living things, they just do it faster than most. |
Posted By: JoJames
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 9:33am
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I can waste so much time looking at all of this.
Basically the answer to your question was that thimerosal which is a mercury based preservative that is in some vaccines was thought to have caused Autism. In NZ the MMR vaccine has never contained this and since 2000 no vaccine on the NZ schedule has contained this preservative. And the CDC in America has found no link between thimerosal and autism, http://www.immune.org.nz/default.asp?t=721 - IMAC http://www.cdc.gov/Features/Thimerosal/ - CDC I am a paediatric nurse and am a qualified immunisator so I have done all the training and I have also looked at anti-immunisation ideas and I will always immunise my children, ------------- http://www.alterna-tickers.com"> 
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Posted By: Basil_brush
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 12:20pm
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Well haven't I unleashed a monster!!! It is really good to see so many people care enough about their babies to at least think about this.
I do have a medical degree, and so I think I am able to comment on this. I believe it is a copout to go to your GP and expect them to answer these questions for you. Doc's are expected to know all about everything and the reality is they don't. They're generally ethical and altruistic people who are trying to do their best for you but it is absolutely impossible for them to know everything (if everything was known, which it isnt.). Also, they are being constantly fed the party line information about vax (I see this every day) and are generally far too busy to go back to the scientific literature to check sources for themselves. So if you really really care, take some responsibility for the issue yourself, read up on it and then make the call. And I don't mean what's reported on the news, or on google, or in vaccine manufacturer fuinded studies. Think about where that info comes from!!! You need to check out the unbiased literature eg in JAVMA, JAMA etc. As I said in my very first post, I am only trying to do what is best for my child. I don't want to be inflammatory, and I respect your ability to make this decision for yourselves. But sometimes a little information can be a dangerous thing. I have done a lot of research into this over the recent weeks. One thing I have learned is that going against the flow ain't easy!!! |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 3:33pm
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The flu jab which is recommended for babies over 6months contains thimerosal Saffron.
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Posted By: MuppetsMama
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 10:31pm
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Just adding my 2 cents....
I was fully immunised - and I mean FULLY , I got MMR, Polio, Diptheria, Tetnus, Meningitis A, Men B, Hep A, Hep B, Hep C, and the list goes on....! Hubby on the other hand had nothing. SO when it came to our wee girly being born we had a big issue on our hands. Wanting to be fair, I did a lot of asking around, and found a great stall at the parent & child show (wish I could remember what it was called) that had a couple of books, I think one was called Immunisation in New ZEaland, and the other was called 'Just a Little Prick'. Very good even though I just picked through them, and swayed me over to deciding not to vaccinate. Deffo worth a look up either on the net or at this years parent and child show, if they are going to be there, Good luck with your decision making! |
Posted By: MrsSmith
Date Posted: 09 July 2009 at 11:20pm
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I definitely don't vaccinate at 6 weeks. NZ changed from 8 weeks to 6 weeks a very long time ago when there was a whooping cough epidemic, and never changed back. All other countries start vaccinating later. I also think people should consider their baby's gestational age for the early jabs.
I deliberately waited until 3 months for the first one. My kids get the MMR at 2 years old and only if they have been really healthy for a few weeks beforehand. If not, then we wait. When they do get it, I watch for months like a hawk in case they display any unexpected symptoms. They got the Prevenar jabs starting later and with bigger gaps than recommended in between. I won't be getting the chicken pox vaccine as there is no guarantee as for how long it lasts, and I don't want them catching it as adults - as it can be worse. We haven't had the rotavirus or flu vaccines either. There's no swine flu vaccine yet - I wonder if that will be added to the list soon. |
Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 12:21am
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Posted By: Worldwanderer
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:44am
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I am really unsure about what to do next. We started the first round of vacinations at 14 weeks. My DD was a bit grumpy and unsetted but ok. After her second set we had two weeks of intermittent vomiting and diarrhea that started within a few hours of the injections. My DD has been unsettled and grumpy since and it is not looking like it is getting better. She still has a lump in her leg from the vaccine and it has been 5 weeks since the last one.
My gut instinct is to not continue with the vaccinations but we are going travelling so I think it is important to have as much protection as possible for her. It is such a hard decision and not one I can make easily. I think the hardest thing is that all the information is conlicting and it is so hard to know what is 'right'. |
Posted By: QHX
Date Posted: 10 July 2009 at 11:53am
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If parenting has taught me anything so far it is to always trust your intuition, regardless of what your doctor/mother in law/friend/whoever tells you. No one knows your baby better than you. |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 12 July 2009 at 9:32am
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Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 12 July 2009 at 9:34am
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Check this out
http://tvnz.co.nz/health-news/measles-spreads-in-christchurch-outbreak-2828245 |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 12 July 2009 at 9:39am
CORRECT |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 13 October 2010 at 3:37pm
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heres another one for muppets mum ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Posted By: Mucky_Tiger
Date Posted: 13 October 2010 at 4:31pm
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Some useless personal information from me (started Imms in December 1989)
I had my 6 weeks Imm's - high temp Had the 3 months one - high temp whole leg turned red Had the 5 months one - febrile seizure whole body red and splotchy - classic meningitis presentation but was an allergic reaction to vaccine Was delayed from here on. Had the ones scheduled for 15months at 4yrs old - had anaphylactic reaction Had the ones scheduled for 4 years old at age 8 - no reaction (aparently they changed the ingredients) Had the ones scheduled at age 11 at 14 - fine, no reaction Got the meningitis B ones as they rolled them out HUGE Reaction. First one my whole arm and shoulder region swelled up and was rock hard and swollen for 1month. Second one was at the normal time frame between them, this time had borderline anapylactic reaction - could still breathe (barely) but tounge was hugely swollen up - and my arm swelled up again. Got dragged along on scheduled 3rd Vax and refused to do it and the Nurses tried to force me to do it so i said no you cant make me, and they tried saying apparently we can cos my parents had signed the consent form. Got mum to come along to school to sign a form to say I was not allowed to have the Vax and she consents to me not getting it - total bull cr*p the proces they have.
they were prepared to do it to me again and send me to hospital again. I have already decided to not Vax my children because of my reactions. And if I do decide to vax they will be delayed. I wont be starting until they are atleast two. |
Posted By: Marengo
Date Posted: 13 October 2010 at 7:30pm
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ive always been pro natural sort of things, not to an extreme degree, i had all the usual vaccines when i was young and didnt have reactions to anything, (still got measels and mumps though after being vaxed) however have not and will not ever have the flu jab or anything like that
i feel that they can actually lower your natural levels of immunity to some things, i know people that get flu jab every year and every year they get flu at least two or three times.. ive not had the flu in TEN years.. no colds or anything either since staying away from antibiotics and avoiding vaccinations, everyone around me at work gets sick while i remain strong as an ox heh.. (famous last words i'm sure but touch wood it continues) I think our bodies are designed to naturally build immunity through exposure to certain things, ive not made my decision about vaccinating my child as its a different ballgame when you are considering your childs health instead of your own, so will make sure i do more reaserch as i dont even know the tip of the iceberg i'm sure to make a proper informed decision. THis thread is very insightful. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
Our angel Ella Louise born 13.04.
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