The no-cry sleep solution
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Topic: The no-cry sleep solution
Posted By: Ella1
Subject: The no-cry sleep solution
Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 10:57pm
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Has anyone here used "the no cry sleep solution" by Elizabeth Pantley?
Mika's sleep (at night) has gotten progressively worse over the last few months. She now wakes up almost every hour and wants to be nursed back to sleep  .
I parent pretty much attachment parenting style. At the moment she sleeps in our bed, but it would be nice if she moved back into her cot (next to our bed) at some stage, just because of space issues. I definately do NOT want to leave her crying in her cot to fall asleep, so CIO or CC are not an option. A few weeks ago I put a hold on this book at the library, but today I found out there are still so many people ahead of me, it will be at least another 2 months before I get the book, and I really don't want to wait that long. So I've been thinking about buying this book, but it's a lot of money, so I need it to be worth it. I would be interested to hear people's opinions on Pantley's ideas. |
Replies:
Posted By: myfullhouse
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 7:24am
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I liked her book but at the time I didn't follow what she said as I wasn't in the right frame of mind to make the changes however I have used her toddler version since then and it was great. I think she has great ideas and she also explains why things can be happening which is great.
I also love "Sleeping like a baby" by Pinky McKay and have used her suggestion several times. I don't like CC or CIO and both books work without it. Try looking on TM as that is where I got my books from ------------- Lindsey 
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Posted By: BeLoved
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 7:35am
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I have her "No cry nap solution" book and it was of a great help to me as my DD was a great night sleeper but terrible day sleeper. I looked around on TM but ended up buying it from Fishpond as it was the only place that had it.
I also used alot of the techniques in the "Baby Whisperer solves all your problems" both of these do not use CIO or CC, so it maybe worth seeing if this is available from the library. |
Posted By: princesspumpkin
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 8:32am
I love it - the ideas fit with me much better than the baby whisperer or any of the other experts out there. Definitely worth a go  .
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Posted By: Ella1
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 8:35am
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I like the Pinky McKay book, but I need some more concrete suggestions to improve Mika's sleep.
I'm not a big baby whisperer fan. I had the Secrets of the Babywhisperer, but gave it away cause the book really annoyed me. Maybe I should look at this one |
Posted By: weegee
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 8:49am
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I haven't read the book, but used a bunch of articles that happened to be written by Pantley and they were awesome (specifically her http://babyparenting.about.com/od/sleeping/a/nightfeed.htm - "gentle removal" technique - totally works) so I imagine the book would be worthwhile.
There are quite a few excerpts on http://www.thesleepstore.co.nz/sleep+information/All+sleep+info.html - The Sleepstore's website if you want to 'try before you buy' There are also lots of pages of both the original book and the toddler version on Google Books.------------- 
Mum to JJ, 4 July 2008 & Addie, 28 July 2010 |
Posted By: peanut butter
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 10:09am
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I have the book at the moment from our library and I really like her approach. It is very gentle and nuturing. I dont think you would be disappointed and if you were you could always onsell on TM.
I havent read it again to put things into practice as things seem to be getting better but it was a lot of commonsense. Not a quick fix and definitely NO crying! And the author was into cosleeping so its definitely pro- attachment parenting. 
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Posted By: ?Lolly?
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 12:31pm
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I hate leaving my girls to cry. My partner get annoyed with me because I don't let them cry longer than about 3 to 5 minutes. It distresses me letting them CIO. I have heard that Lizzie Hall's 'Save our sleep' is good. So I am thinking about buying it. ------------- Captain Chaos (5) & the Trouble Monsters (2!) 
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Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 1:38pm
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I have read both the 'baby' version and the toddler version...love it, love it, love it and would certainly buy if I wasn't able to borrow from library.
Read the original NCCS when DS2 was 13 months after a very bad patch of sleep where we were getting 5 hours of very broken sleep in every 24 and NOTHING was working and we almost went nuts.  I read it, tweaked a couple of things and the thing that did it, something 'stupid' like moving his bedtime forward an hour! Felt like the biggest idiots alive. LOL
I've just read the toddler version because we have early risers and was curious to see if we could change that............we had DS2 doing 7-7 at one stage but he's back to about 6:30 on average after thinking that 5am was a great time to start the day. 
She is very pro attachment parenting, huge advocate of bed sharing and she uses gentle ways to help you get rid of sleep associations you don't want (and not calling them 'bad' ) while not making you feel 'guilty' or like you've done the 'wrong' thing by parenting in a way that feels right to you like so many of the other books do. She does say there might be some crying, but it's not in a leaving them to cry type of way; it's more like I would naturally do anyway which is hold him when he cried.....so even if I couldn't get him to stop crying then at least he knew that I was still there for him. Frustrating at times, but so worth it IMO. Even now if either boy needs 'help' to get off to sleep they get it......much to the confusion of people we know who think that I am doing something wrong because they don't always get a 'blanket' response to something I know they can do themselves.....but just because they can doesn't mean that they should, well in my mummy book anyway.
So in my huge rambling reply she gets  from me.------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Aprilfools
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 2:45pm
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Where abouts are you? Maybe you can borrow from someone off here. I have a copy you're welcome to borrow if you are in Auckland.
I liked the book and loved her techniques however my boy didn't and only responded by getting worse. I would definitely try the no cry sleep solution again on our next baby as our first port of call though. The thing that I really liked about it was that it answered a lot of the what if scenarios where as the baby whisperer I found didn't. We resorted to CC in the end as I was about to flip my lid and thankfully it worked super quick as the thought of hearing him cry for too long made me want to be sick.  ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: kmarie
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 8:10pm
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Aprilfools we found the same as you. I loved the book (I borrowed both that one and 'sleeping like a baby' by pinky mckay from the library) and the ideas and principles behind it were ones I totally agreed with. Unfortunately Bethany didn't agree, and believe me, we tried everything :( So we had to resort to CC/CIO based on a programme called the sleep sense programme. I still HATE listening to her cry (yes she does still cry) but it got to the point that us being in there with her made no difference to the length of time it took her to get to sleep. I think that if we'd had Elizabeth's book from the very beginning, it might have been a different story. But even then, who knows. ------------- 
twins in heaven Oct07 Is 40:11 "He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart." |
Posted By: RoSee
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 10:14pm
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What I'm about to ask is in NO way putting anyone down or anything like that, I've just wanted to know for ages why some people are so against CC / CIO?
Please don't take that question the wrong way I'm just curious!!  ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
http://lilypie.com"> 
 September '11
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Posted By: Mamma2N
Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 11:38pm
Rose, there is alot of reasons why I am against CIO.. This is a very quick rundown. A baby wants to feel secure and be close to his/her mother/father. And to then leave baby to 'settle' on their own is quite a foreign concept after spending 9 months inside the womb. Babies have feelings, fears etc and to think that my baby feels like they have been abandoned, while left to CIO really doesn't sit well with me. There are other 'gentle' methods to getting baby to sleep and personally I would rather do these. I certainly know that if I am upset & crying that I want a cuddle and I don't see why it should be any different for my baby. Hope that makes sense.
ETA This is a really great article about it http://www.dreamparenting.com/images/stories/the%20crying%20game%20-%20nth%20and%20sth%20magazine%20aug%202007.pdf - The crying game To the OP, I haven't used the NCSS myself but know of friends who swear by it
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RoSee wrote:Posted By: Babe
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 10:46am
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I tried the no-cry sleep solution but TBH me and Jake hated it. I ended up going with babywise, putting him in a routine and voila but that was as a newborn. He hit a PITA stage around 13 months where he'd refuse to go to bed and scream and scream and scream and I tried the no-cry book again but ended up in despair and happily resorted to CIO/CC methods which again worked brilliantly.
I do think the fact that attachment parenting isn't my thing probably affected how it worked since I hated having him in bed with me etc but just thought I'd give you another opinion -------------   
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Posted By: blondy
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 12:51pm
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We tried the NCSS too (when Nat was up like clockwork every 3ish hours during the night), but TBH it was far too dragged out for me - in the frame of mind I was in, I needed improvement within a week!
I love the book "good night sleep tight" by Kim West. kind of in between no crying AT ALL and CIO/CC. It also has everything broken down by age, so (as will no doubt happen), when Nat's sleep becomes interrupted again at some stage, there are age-specific suggestions. I was sooooo anti-CC/CIO, I swore I would never let her cry, but in the end, that's what worked for us, although she was 12 months by then . I think there is a difference between letting your baby CIO regardless of what they sound like (i.e. when they really are distressed), and just leaving them when they are doing the "I'm annoyed at you and don't want to go to sleep" cry. And for us, the waking had got to the stage where it was pure habit.
I totally understand people not wanting to do CC/CIO, but never say never  and do what is right for you and your baby. I think the NCSS is definitely worth a go.-------------  
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Posted By: AuntieSarah
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 1:41pm
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Mamma2N that is a great article thanks for that ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Nic01
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 1:53pm
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I got her toddler version & used some of the tips from there. To be honest, it didn't really work for us that well & I ended up going with the routines, suggestions etc in Save our Sleep by Tizzie Hall. That was sort of one in between no cry & CIO similar to blondy's suggestion above.
Elizabeth Pantley's got a website & there's an article on there which tells you how she stops the night nursing (or feeding to sleep) http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071381392.php?nid=172&isbn=0071381392 - Elizabeth Pantley article This is the same method as in her book. Might be worth a try before you fork out for the actual book.... ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mumtooboys
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 2:41pm
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What I am about to say is how *I* see things and how *I* feel
I did say never again and the difference in my two children is like night and day; the one who was left to CIO has lots of difficulties controlling and expressing emotions, now has trouble relating to his peers, has poor impulse control and at times is not a very nice child to be around because he is at times a very angry and aggressive child. It meant that I wasn't quick to comfort him when he needed it for fear that he would never be independent of me because all those 'experts' told me that if I did 'x,y,z' that I'd have major problems. Well I might not have had any of them, but the ones I have now aren't that flash either. The one who wasn't, happiest, calmest most secure child I know and he didn't need to be 'taught' to self settle, he just did it. Having said that, I did what I felt was best at the time, based on information I had at the time and once I realised there was a better way forward I grabbed on with both hands. I hate CC/CIO because it forces you to over ride the instincts that you have as a mother, that one that says your baby is crying comfort them. I hate it because it raises the stress hormones in their developing brains and can 'rewire' it. I hate it because all I have read about the method since is practically reflected in DS1 and it makes me feel like sh*te. I also hate it because it doesn't reflect the realities of how real people sleep, and I am not talking about just babies......by that I mean it works to the premise that once we are asleep that we should sleep all night without waking which just isn't the truth. And if you've read the Toddler version of the NCSS she explains this quite well. If I have learned one thing from parenting DS2 the way we have is that parenting is really about the long game; yeah if I leave him to CIO he might stop calling out to me at 2am, but at what cost to our relationship and his self esteem? Thanks but no thanks. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 3:31pm
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I loved the no cry sleep solution but it does take a bit of patience. I read it and modified it a bit to suit us.
I used CIO with Jack and really regret it in terms of what I have learnt about brain development. I almost used CIO with Caprece the other day but I couldn't do it and decided long term it wasn't worth it. Good luck no sleep sure does suck
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Posted By: ElfsMum
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 3:45pm
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i had read most of the books but really didnt go with any one thing..i never ever left Ethan to cry which in hindsight took alot of undoing when he was older:) but mostly his problems were resolved by a dummy.. and a gentle cuddle.. but i had him in cot from day one(well at 6 weeks he slept in it all the time before that was a lot of bouncer during the day) and he's still never slept with me so maybe that makes ti different.. and i never fed him to sleep after the first few weeks (not that I'm saying any of these things are bad just that we didnt do them so not sure of they make a difference...
I just always went in to him at every noise really.. so i guess in the end I'm not much help..maybe i was just lucky he settled quickly most of the time ? ------------- Mum to two amazing boys! |
Posted By: HippyMama
Date Posted: 16 October 2009 at 10:18pm
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I'm sure I posted this link elsewhere but this article by Pinky McKay explains why I choose not to CC / CIO.
"http://blog.babesinarms.com.au/2009/09/04/the-language-of-tears/ - The Language of Tears At the crux of it is the raising of stress hormone levels as mumtooboys mentions, leaving a baby to cry for extended amounts of time floods their brain with cortisol and eventually they give up, knowing that no one is going to come and reassure them. I find it so absolutely gut wrenching and almost nauseating (in a panicked way) when my DD2 cries in distress for any length of time at all - and at the moment I have come to accept that my kids needs come first as they cannot yet fend for themselves. ------------- Mama to two earth walkers & two angels. Remember, you are not managing an inconvenience; You are raising a human being. ~ Kittie Franz Next Slingbabies! Meet - Friday 4th May !! |
Posted By: caitlynsmygirl
Date Posted: 17 October 2009 at 11:19pm
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I have never heard of these authors ! interesting stuff
Im a hard bitch *shrugs * , C was a CIO baby and anyone thats met her knows the word insecure does not apply to her. (tho , it was 7 years since she was a baby , and there wasn't many ideas out there really ) ..oh , and for the record, we have a great relationship . .. Ty im more quick to comfort him (so much for not being one of "those " mums who panders to their sons , I so am ) but he doesn't really cry unless hes hungry , he doesn't mind going to sleep . Im not averse to trying new things, so if I did need another option and Ty was a bad sleeper , I would def look at the no cry sleep solution ... ------------- 
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Posted By: princesspumpkin
Date Posted: 19 October 2009 at 3:50pm
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Great article HippyMama, so nice to see the Crying Game one posted too Mama2N, love that article .
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Posted By: flakesitchyfeet
Date Posted: 20 October 2009 at 8:33am
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Hollie had colic for the first 12 weeks. Sometimes we had to just let her cry in bed, we needed the break...remembering there was absolutely nothing we could do for 3hours a night of absolute screaming. We often drove...but petrol isn't the worlds cheapest commidity!
I like to think that those experiences in the first 12 weeks won't effect her later on in life. She was always held close, fed, changed etc, but we had to look after ourselves too, to be able to continue caring for her to the best of our abilities. Now, she has few minutes of grizzle when we put her down for sleep/a nap, generally she's settled as the mobile turns off. In saying all of that, I have heard great things about the NCSS and would be interested in how you got on, it's something I would certainly try for a non-colicy tot! -------------  http://lilypie.com"> |
Posted By: becsscolly
Date Posted: 21 October 2009 at 2:46pm
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Isn't it amazing how we (and our babies) are all so different!
My son was 9 months by the time we had him sleeping well through the night and the key for us was a good day time sleep routine. I think we had a few weeks of trying methods such CC, music, reassurance, BF and all that but making sure he had 2 good day sleeps at about the same times (prob. within 1/2 hour) each day really seemed to settle him for night time, that and a good wind-down period/routine before his night sleep. Hope some of that helps ------------- http://alterna-tickers.com"> 
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Posted By: kmarie
Date Posted: 21 October 2009 at 7:53pm
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Bethany slept on us a lot during the day in the first few months of her life (though was in her own bassinet, then cot, at night), it was at about 3/4mths that we started putting her into bed regularly both day and night. She's always cried when put to bed (since the day she was born), so for a long time we'd settle her to sleep on us first. In the early days I picked up Pinky McKay's book and loved how empowering it was for mothers. Then as she got older (and wiser) and headed towards 6mths, we struck problems cuz she just wouldn't settle on us, or if she did, it would take a crazy amount of effort and a very long time.
At that point I came across NCSS and thought it was wonderful, started following the steps and using the techniques but not a lot changed in her sleep behaviour. It got to the point where she'd wake every 1.5-2hrs EVERY NIGHT, take up to 3 hours to resettle, and only be sleeping 25mins 2or3x a day. I tell you, it was insanity. That's when I came across the sleepsense progamme. In a nutshell, you taught your baby to self settle by staying with them and reassuring them, but letting them cry (or babble or sing or whatever they do) until they fall asleep. Over 9 days you gently got them to the point where, on the 10th day, they could fall asleep with you out of the room. Yes it was about crying, and yes it was the most traumatic, heartwrenching thing to do, but we were at the point where we had exhausted every other option. It worked like a dream, (apart from hours of crying) and within 3 days Bethany was sleeping 11-12hrs overnight, and was a HAPPIER child for it! (And we're talking about a baby who was always happy anyway, it blew me away that she could possibly get happier!) So I knew that for her, it was the right thing. Unfortunately things went backwards when she got sick, we let her cuddle to sleep again and she decided that was the only way she'd fall asleep. Was horrible having her scream again when we re-taught her that she could go to sleep without us. And then of course she learnt how to stand up in her cot... which is still causing probs when it comes to her falling asleep! So we've had to take a 'once you're in bed, you're in bed until you fall asleep - no matter what' approach. CIO really I guess, but at least it has been scaffolded, and we didn't even go there until more recently so she's a lot more knowing and isn't so little she feels completely deserted. Awful to ignore the screams, but we know (from experience) that if we go in there, it will only make the prob worse. Unfortunately with Bethany, if we give an inch she takes a mile :( I'm SO hoping that #2 will be a great sleeper! I keep telling myself that if he/she isn't, at least they can't get much worse than Bethany I'm just so thankful that she's generally a happy baby, I can't imagine how much more draining it would be if she was a bad sleeper AND grumpy all the time!
Sorry about the essay, just wanted to be clear on how we ended up with the CIO method, despite all my misgivings about it. I do totally understand how you ladies feel who think it is terrible, and I wish we didn't have to - but I know my daughter and there's no other way :( She certainly isn't showing any effects of it - except for being happier and livelier now that she gets more sleep! That's what I have to keep reminding myself of. Cuz in all honesty, it's for her - not us - that we do it. -------------
twins in heaven Oct07 Is 40:11 "He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart." |