free range parenting???
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Topic: free range parenting???
Posted By: rorylex
Subject: free range parenting???
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:04pm
iv heard alot of discussions about this topic on tv but mostly are from US.
what are everyones thought on this.
im on the fence and dont know what to think.
------------- Mummy to 4 boys
Samuel - 18.6.05
Rory - 15.7.06
Mason - 13.06.08
Emmett - 24.01.10
Baby #5 - cooking
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Replies:
Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:27pm
What is it? Sounds like something you do with chickens
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Angel June 2012
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Posted By: RinTinTin
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:34pm
I don't know what it is either....
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Posted By: MrsEmma
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:36pm
Just having a read about it, free-range parenting is based on the notion “that we can give our children the same kind of freedom we had [as kids] without going nuts with worry,”
“When you let children out, all the good things happen - the self-confidence, happiness, and self-sufficiency that come from letting our kids do some things on their own,”
For eg on the website I was reading. there was one Mum who let her 9 year old ride the New York subway alone.
I think it's good to a point - but then there is a perception that there is more to be worried about these days then say the 70's/80's and earlier when this type of parenting was probably the norm. Letting kids go to the park on their own, riding bikes around town on their own etc.
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Posted By: RinTinTin
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:41pm
Oh, well that sounds like an exaggerated version of my form of parenting.
I parent based on the notion that my child is capable and that he is a free and equal being. My job is to support, not interfere.
In saying that, I think letting him ride the freeway on his own might be pushing it.
Common sense needs to be used.
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Posted By: Babykatnz
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:45pm
I let B ride his bike unattended on our road.. BUT, its a very small culdesac, and most of the families have kids his age, and I can see the whole street from my lounge window... that being said, he knows he isnt allowed past the open end of our road... And he walks home from school... but I think thats about as free-range as I'd let him get lol!
------------- Brandon - 05/12/2003

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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:49pm
Sounds good to a certain extent, like M2M said, common sense needs to be used, but look at the kids of today, they all sit inside watching tv/playing computer/etc. I never see kids outside playing except for Bretheren kids.
I agree it is our job to support our kids!
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Posted By: MamaT
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:52pm
I was just having a read up on it too and yeah I agree with Mum2Mac, I can definately see the value in it and it is how I'd like to parent, but to a point.
My MIL for example will absolutely freak out if her grandson (my 3yo nephew) runs off to the other side of their yard, incase he falls over and grazes his knee. She won't let him have any space of his own, she has to be within arms reach, just in case. Whereas, I feel that kids need to learn their own boundaries and that falling over etc is the best way to learn.
I think it is a lot like the parenting that Nigel Latta endorses. My kind of parenting
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 12:54pm
Too early to say what I'd do and I also think it depends on where we are living.
If we are here in Feilding I've not problem with her walking to school or playing down at the park.
If we're in Whenuapai however she'd have to cross Hobosonville Rd to get to school and that would be too dangerous for a 5/6 year old.
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Angel June 2012
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Posted By: rorylex
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 1:28pm
i think im more of a free range parent, id let my kids walk to school if i thought they were capable but thats a yr off yet and its a bit of a tramp,
things like letting them climb trees, play outside in the rain(my kids like to do this with out clothes )
and i can think of many other things i let my kids do, that i know some parents would disapprove of.
when my kids are ready they will be walking to the bus stop and going to school etc.
though at 9yrs old is more like when id start teaching them how to use the public transport, not letting them use it alone.
------------- Mummy to 4 boys
Samuel - 18.6.05
Rory - 15.7.06
Mason - 13.06.08
Emmett - 24.01.10
Baby #5 - cooking
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 1:33pm
I don't have a problem with them climbing trees and playing outside etc as long as they're appropriately dressed etc.
There's a lot more traffic around than when I was younger, so anything that involves being near busy main roads is a cause for concern with me.
I used to ride my bike across half of Akl on a Sunday with my friends when I was 9 or 10, no way I'd do this now as its simply to busy and drivers don't look out for cyclists let alone kids.
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Angel June 2012
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Posted By: princesspumpkin
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 1:49pm
Ha ha rorylex, playing outside in the rain without clothes sounds like a fab idea . Me & DS played in the rain in shorts & bare feet til it got too cold, easier than getting shoes & socks & pants dry! Awesome
I'm a Nigel Latta fan too, he's a sensible chap. I agree with everyone who says they'd let the kids bike to school if not for main road traffic, to get anywhere from our place involves an 8km ride down SH2! (that and Jarvis is only 15 months old & would look a little funny on his little bike hooning through a 100kmh zone!).
I'm all for adventuring, not in a crazy dangerous way, but I sure get some weird looks from the PAFT lady for making obstacle courses involving stepladders and chairs. I have a climber, and if I don't give him something to cilmb he'll find something for himself!! And I'm always there to catch him if he does slip .
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Posted By: MyLilSquishy
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 2:03pm
ahahaha sorry but i just imagined free-range chickens being replaced with kids lol.
im in the let-kids-be-kids boat... let em climb trees, play with foam swords, cops n robbers, get dirty, have fun basically. our street is a small cul de sac and when he is old enough to play out on the street, as long as he understood to not go too close to the open end of the street, to knock politely on neighbours doors if for example they lost a ball over a fence instead of just going and getting it iygwim then i dont have a prob with that. but going to the park by himself or riding his bike around the neighbourhood i might be a bit more antsy about it... id rather take him to a bmx track or something and let him go nuts there. our street (and the one up and down) arent bad, but the general area nereby is, and i know that is a GROSS generalisation... i guess you can never be too careful... i would prolly have to drive him to and from school simply because otherwise itd take him and hour-hour n half and he would have to cross the road by a motorway on-ramp on the way there, so for that reason i would drive. but if there was a walking school bus then sure...
i do think there is alot more to worry about these days... but i see those worries as more of an external source iygwim...
im happy for him to climb trees in the backyard, but i would rather go with him to the park kinda thing... hope all of that makes sense lol.
and serendipity - ill be making obstacle courses and DP is going to build him a tree house and we both want to make couch forts ahaha. i remember playing "the floor is lava" when i was a littlie. great game
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Posted By: RinTinTin
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 2:24pm
MyLilSquishy wrote:
im in the let-kids-be-kids boat... let em climb trees, play with foam swords, cops n robbers, get dirty, have fun basically. |
Hardly sounds sporting. Why only foam swords? Whats wrong with the real deal? Or big sticks sharpened to a point  
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Posted By: caliandjack
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 2:27pm
DH is very much into the out doors etc, he'll definately be taking the kids camping and showing them how to use knives and tie knots etc Be great for them when its age appropriate though.
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Angel June 2012
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Posted By: rorylex
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 2:37pm
what id be worried about is if we were "free range" children 10/20yrs ago and all the stuff we could do then, we dont allow kids to do today, (wasnt even thought to be all that dangerous.)
then what are kids in yr 2030 going to be like, what are our kids going to be like as parents if all that stuff wasnt allowed, back in the day trees made for an excellent jungle gym but these days one could say an actual playground is just as dangerous.
public transport is a good one to look at teaching a child to use, im in my 20's and for the 1st time ever a few weeks ago had to figure out how to catch the train to auckland then a bus to somewhere else, with a preschooler and an infant. i was scared id get lost. luckily i didnt. but i did wish some one had taught me all that stuff before.
------------- Mummy to 4 boys
Samuel - 18.6.05
Rory - 15.7.06
Mason - 13.06.08
Emmett - 24.01.10
Baby #5 - cooking
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Posted By: Mucky_Tiger
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 3:03pm
MyLilSquishy wrote:
our street is a small cul de sac |
our street is a cul de sac too, a no exit street of another no exit street...in fact its got the same name as you
not stalking, i promise ( i seen your name on the FB addicts group.
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Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 3:05pm
I remember seeing that woman who let her son ride the subway by himself on Oprah or Dr. Phil and she was brilliant. am trying to remember what exactly happened, but it was something like they built up to the by himself ride - i think initially she went with him and discussed things of how to do it, what to do if things went wrong etc, and then let him go for it. the media blew it out of proportino cause initially i thought how irresponsible, but when she explained the premise i thought it was really well done.
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Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 4:06pm
I think it's a nice concept and one that's pretty easily followed with preschoolers as they are generally supervised most the time so climbing trees, playing rough games, riding bikes etc don't pose too much danger. It's when kids get older that it is a harder to concept to safely apply IMO... for example, letting your kids walk to school is scary IMO as if they don't arrive you are relying on the school to ring re: absenses... which even when they do it's normally not until an hour or so after they should have arrived but often I haven't even been rung (when I've forgotten to let them know). I use to drive or walk my DD1 to school and let her walk home cos if she wasn't home I could go looking for her... until the day a man pulled over in a car got out and chased her home ... I'm not at all an overprotective mother and when we moved to the country my oldest bused into town every day to finish the year at her school - she was 11 at the time... I'm just saying I think it's once you have to give your child that freedom without your supervision or being in close proximity that you can really see how much of a free range parent you can really handle being IYGWIM...
------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D
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Posted By: rorylex
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 7:11pm
i agree with you freckle, i dont think i could let my kids walk to school as i cant know for sure they got there also their school is 2-3k away and its mostly up hill, but if they are game enough to walk that far i dont mind them walking home.
the bus stop is about 100m from the letter box.
i saw the lady on dr phil when they were speaking about free range vs helicopter parenting. and yes it wasnt just her 9yr old getting on a bus blindly and didnt know what he was doing, and dr phil spoke to the boy and he didnt seem at all like he couldnt handle it. there was something she said in her book that made sence but im not sure if i want to go all that in to it lol.
------------- Mummy to 4 boys
Samuel - 18.6.05
Rory - 15.7.06
Mason - 13.06.08
Emmett - 24.01.10
Baby #5 - cooking
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Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 8:17pm
I think its a nice idea but after having just filed a police report against a 40ish year old man propositioning my 13 year old daughter at a bus stop I have closed ranks a bit. Luckily some lovely members of the public came to her aid and looked after her until I came as they overheard what he was saying.
I let my kids play in the street as we live on a quiet road. My 9 year old walks home from school however I don't let him walk thru a path that has graffitti on and make him walk the street instead in plain site. As I would if I was walking that way.
So it is common sense really. I am probably a bit more paranoid than the regular kiwi mum as we have only just moved back from the US.
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Posted By: RinTinTin
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 8:44pm
kiwi2 thats horrible! I hope the Police take strong action against that man. I can totally understand being a bit more tense about things after that.
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Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 9:07pm
That is so horrible kiwi2.
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Posted By: MyLilSquishy
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 9:08pm
Mum2Mac wrote:
MyLilSquishy wrote:
im in the let-kids-be-kids boat... let em climb trees, play with foam swords, cops n robbers, get dirty, have fun basically. |
Hardly sounds sporting. Why only foam swords? Whats wrong with the real deal? Or big sticks sharpened to a point   |
ahaha, i have no doubts my kid/s would come up with something like that.....
Mucky_Tiger wrote:
MyLilSquishy wrote:
our street is a small cul de sac |
our street is a cul de sac too, a no exit street of another no exit street...in fact its got the same name as you
not stalking, i promise ( i seen your name on the FB addicts group. |
lol which part of my name? and i dont mind a stalker hehe
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Posted By: Babe
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 9:17pm
I figure Jake will tell me if hes hurt or scared and so far thats worked. I keep an eye on him but let him do his thing. Hes now a really confident little boy but the occasional accident has given him a solid fear trigger IYKWIM? He's happy to climb stuff but after falling off unstable things a couple of times he now either gets straight down or asks for help if hes on something wobbly. He can hammer a nail in with a full-size hammer better than some men I know, he climbs.. well he climbs the chicken coop coz we don't have trees , uhm pretty much anything he sets his mind too I let him try as long as he can't damage others, other things or himself too seriously. Because of how old he is thats about as free-range as I can/will get but I hope as he gets older the boundaries will expand as his abilities and experience do. Then again I think thats all part of good parenting
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Posted By: _H_
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 9:28pm
Smart boy you have there babe! i think the same thing, kids need to learn things themself (ie Jake not going on wobbly things after falling off a couple of times) but as someone else said you also need to use you common sense
edit- after rereading what i wrote i want to point out im not saying anyone that has posted doesnt have common sense!
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Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 9:42pm
Mum2Mac wrote:
kiwi2 thats horrible!
I hope the Police take strong action against that man. I can totally understand being a bit more tense about things after that. |
Not very nice but my faith in people was restored by these lovely people who stayed with her and then called her school the next day to track her down and make sure she was ok. So we are focusing on the good deed that these people did and the extra 5 mins of their day which they chose to spend helping a young girl out.
I still think that some freedom is definately beneficial. It just depends on the situation and child. I thought she was ready at 13 and now I am doubting it a bit. I trust her and her choices I am just worried about the nutters/predators out there.
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Posted By: Babe
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 9:47pm
__H__ wrote:
Smart boy you have there babe! i think the same thing, kids need to learn things themself (ie Jake not going on wobbly things after falling off a couple of times) but as someone else said you also need to use you common sense
edit- after rereading what i wrote i want to point out im not saying anyone that has posted doesnt have common sense! |
LOL yes I agree with that too - gotta use common sense. I was meaning that in a roundabout way. I let him climb the big slide at the park and go down by himself but I'm always standing at the bottom of the ladder then follow alongside the slide (even though its taller than me lol makes me feel better). Hes allowed to play with daddys hammers, nails, screwdrivers and such under loose to no supervision as long as he adheres to the 'only wood' rule, but anything sharp (axe!) or that requires a level of care and forethought past his age is absolutely out of reach! Its a balancing act 
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Posted By: High9
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 10:12pm
That's awful Kiwi2!
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Posted By: Mucky_Tiger
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 10:21pm
MyLilSquishy wrote:
lol which part of my name? and i dont mind a stalker hehe |
zee last bit were over in one of the 'bays'
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 10:34pm
We parent this way. I do have to say thou that living in Waiouru I was far too relaxed. Andrew was walking to school at 5 with the neighbours kids (they were 9 and 7), he was out roaming with them as well up the road and round hte corner. The big rule we had was not down the main road (being State Highway 1), and they were very good with that. Coming back to Palmy I have tighten reigns a bit due to it being bigger, but Andrew can still ride his bike up and down the road.
My kids can also play in the back yard with everything we have, we have a tree house in a tree and it is a good 2 metres off the ground, Andrew has jumped off it a few times - I remember jumping off our roof at his age, no harm done.
------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived!
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Posted By: anon
Date Posted: 26 June 2010 at 11:36pm
Hmm I imagine this is another "parenting" issue that people could have strong beliefs about! Because I'm a registered nurse I've had "safety" ingrained into me. Secondly I feel our world is sooo different from when I was a child. Plus I actually feel my mother let me roam too much without noticing or caring enough to be honest... so for instance, I wouldn't let my children play on the road (the neighbourhood kids do) - every year children suffer head injuries because of car accidents playing on the road - even the driveway!, and I would only let them walk home from school on their own in certain circumstances depending on where we lived and where they had to go to walk home, traffic, age, etc.
It's hard to find the balance between being protective enough and being over-protective... but our society is definitely more dangerous now, and there's more traffic on the road etc. so I think we have adapted and changed what we'll allow as parents according to the way society has. And as someone else said: rural or small-town NZ might be a bit different from urban/big cities.
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Posted By: jaz
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 8:45am
I believe in kids taking risks like climbing trees and running around outside playing games out of sticks and things but the world is much busier and there are a lot more weirdos around now than there were when I was a kid, and people not so concerned about helping someone out so do get worried about traffic and kids roaming around unsupervised. We are near some busy roads and our local playground is quite isolated so I did have quite a lot of limitations for my older daughter about walking to school and going places unsupervised.
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Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 8:48am
i try to parent this way but it's more like - case by case. Sometimes i trust Jake implicitly. Like when he was forgotten by his after school care - he stayed at school and waited, until his teacher took him over to the staff room. Taine would have walked home. taine actually probably would have made it home too, whereas jake wouldn't. that kid is far too trusting as well. We have drummed it into him that he can't go off with anyone - ater a conversation last year where he admitted he would jump into someone's car for lollies. taine would be more likely to kick them , grab the lollies and run.
so yeah, case by case.
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Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 8:50am
newlywed wrote:
It's hard to find the balance between being protective enough and being over-protective... but our society is definitely more dangerous now, and there's more traffic on the road etc. so I think we have adapted and changed what we'll allow as parents according to the way society has. And as someone else said: rural or small-town NZ might be a bit different from urban/big cities. |
I do think your right there are more dangers to contend with these days... but really some have always been there, and they are the ones that worry me the most - child predators... My mother was kidnapped as a child, when I was a child I was chased by a guy with a knife, and my oldest daughter was chased by a dodgy guy who pulled over in a car wearing a balclava... so I'm very reluctant to let me kids walk around alone... Although at nearly 14 I have had to let her have more freedom and trust that Ive taught her to be safe and sensible...
------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 9:48am
Posted By: kiwi2
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 2:45pm
I think more than anything parenting is an evolving thing. As circumstances change and the age of the child increases we need to be more flexible in our parenting beliefs. I think the world of a 6 month old baby is alot smaller than the world of a 5year old or 13 year old. As we face these milestones I think we need to adapt our parenting and accommodate these parameters. Hence I would not be able to say that I am a such and such parent. I do beleive that kids need space to learn on their own but I also have that need as a parent to make sure they are safe. At the end of the day that is our job and the reason why children are considered children by law until they are of suitable age. I could not let my 9 year old ride the new york subway as in my opinion that is not a safe situation. But I think that was an extreme and don't think all free range parenting is at that level.
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 2:47pm
Kiwi2, im so sorry to hear of what happened to you , thank goodness she wasn't harmed, but still not a nice experience for you or your daughter ....same to you Freckle
I agree that it is case by case, in some regards I am pretty free with Caitlyn (and to a lesser extent Tyler, hes still my ittle wittle baby boy )
I let her climb trees, slide down poles ,ride her bike to the dairy (its like 4 houses down )
She has walked to school by herself on occasion , with a couple of girls up the road, but walking long distances alone, no , I would not allow that , not yet anyway .
When she was 3 , we got separated at Botany , and looking at all the people walking past, one minute they were just normal people , as soon as I lost her , they were all potential paedophiles and kidnappers , so Im more wary of people these days .
I know that as much as we would all like to protect our children from everything, its not always possible, and some things are out of our control , but the things I can protect her from , I will do my best to do so .
So I guess im a mix of both
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Posted By: crafty1
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 3:27pm
interesting topic, i'd never heard of this before but like most of you ladies agree with the idea to some degree. We even moved house to a suburb which enables us to parent this way for this reason. I want my kids to be able to walk to school and ride their bikes with friends etc and this neighbourhood allows that. I love seeing the kids out and about by themselves. I think it gives kids self confidence and belief.
When i nannied in London the 11yo boy i looked after was not even allowed to leave the property alone and i thought that was sad. Hence why i have strong opinions about it i guess. Some of my friends just don't ever let their kids out of their sight and they really struggle at our place where the kids could be anywhere.
Saying that though kids are damn precious and the thought of something happening makes me feel sick. I do control the degree of risk involved and am there for him if he needs help, but maybe i allow him the freedom because he's not a huge risk taker anyway. Diff personalities definitely need more or less minding.
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 27 June 2010 at 4:24pm
I think its all about setting the right rules. My parents, although the wouldn't have call it such practiced FRP. We grew up on a farm and to be honest there must have been times that they wouldn't have had a clue where we were.
There were the following rules:
-always walk on the side of the road not the tarseal
-never, ever, attempt to get in the effluent pond, if you do you will die
-be home for tea or when it's dark
-treat all fences as if they are electric
-avoid the bull paddock
-don't go near the cupboard in the machinery shed, its locked, but there's dyamyte in it, if it blows up you will die.
I only remember one serious accident, which thanks to my Mum, was OK in the end, but mostly we played in trees, haysheds and creeks. CYPFS would probably be investigating us nowdays.
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 28 June 2010 at 7:43am
LMAO MMM- we had similar rules, although we didn't grow up on a farm we grew up in what was a small quiet town with no busy roads nearby. Our effluent pond rule was the river, and the bull paddock rule applied to any paddock that contained livestock. Also we weren't meant to play in the quarry and especially not slide down the mountains of quarried rock (but we did). Other than that yep, Mum used to give us afternoon tea and say be home for dinner (or lunch at the weekend) and we just kind of knew when it started to get a bit darker in the arvo we best go home lol.
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 28 June 2010 at 7:46am
Oh and I now tell my stepkids (and Clodagh when she's old enough) to treat all fences as if they were electric. Having had horses for a large part of my life you quickly learn that rule lol. My DSS learnt the hard way and ignored my advice, gave him a hell of a shock (literally). It was kind of funny in a way IYKWIM...we've all been there! But yeah I know some parents who would be paranoid about letting their kid experience such a thing (we def didn't 'let' him...he wandered off and ignored our advice). The thing is, he's NEVER touched a fence wire again, and his respect for the farm land has increased 100%!
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Posted By: xLUCKYx
Date Posted: 28 June 2010 at 1:51pm
I haven't read all the posts.... but just wanted to add something because as I was reading this I kept thinking of my SIL who is about to lose her kids to CYFS if she doesnt buck up her ideas... and it doesnt look like she is...
Her kids must be as free range as they come. They are ages 2 through to 14 and they are left to themselves while she stays in bed most days. the 6 and 7 year old have to catch the bus to school and sometimes the 12 year old busses around looking after the 2 year old. It's just nuts...
I am definitly for letting kids have the freedom to be independant, but under a watchful eye. I let my kids learn for themselves why not to do things... let them make their mistakes, and let them be kids. I am not paranoid about them getting messy or never having a lollie...
In the right hands, parents who embrace free range parenting are probably on to a good thing, but I can just imagine my SIL learning about it and going sweet see I'm a good mum, I'm a free range mum... It seems just from what I am looking at that parents who choose to be 'free range' and can work with it well might find it great, but others may pick up on it and think it is a warrant to be lazy...
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 28 June 2010 at 2:21pm
Emmecat - glad to give you laugh, I know that you could you use a few sometimes. I forgot about the electric fence - ouch one blast and never again. Am scared of all wite fences.
xXELAXx - I see why you are worried that sounds there are some real nasty issues there and probably mental health ones. I'd call that neglected parenting. I hope it does get sorted.
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Posted By: lizzle
Date Posted: 28 June 2010 at 7:22pm
in my opinion free range parenting is knowing your child's abilities and limits and allowing them to do what they are capable of. It's also letting your child fail and build resilience. It is teaching your child.
Neglectful parenting is just that - they don't learn lessons, they try to survive.
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Posted By: gypsynita
Date Posted: 28 June 2010 at 7:48pm
i'm in the "free range within reason" camp... in that i pretty much give DS free range (in our yard at least - he's not even 2 yet) but am always there watching him and if he needs me he comes and gets me.
i honestly feel like its the best way for him to learn how to do things and develop - some parents i've seen won't even let their child play on the playground without assisting their every move which i think is a little overprotective. funnily enough, their kids seem to have more accidents (falling off things etc) than mine does, but each to their own i guess.
------------- Anita
Mum to Cian (Aug 08), Josh (Jun 10)
http://lilypie.com">
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