It is Michael Laws he will debate anything.

I don't get the radio here, can someone enlighten me on what's being discussed.

WTF Why would a source of food nutrition need to be prescribed.

Where's Nigel Latta when you need him, I like his view point on breast nazis.

caliandjack wrote: WTF Why would a source of food nutrition need to be prescribed.

I get pasta, flour and oats on prescription

When FIL was dying he was getting liquid foods (similar to formula I guess) on prescription.

ETA: he's against mums who choose not to breastfeed due to lifestyle choices (for eg mums that don't feed because they want to party) he is not anti-mums who can't BF and he's not anti-formula. 

 MrsMojo, I would hate it to get to the point of dying before getting formula.
I guess it depends on the lifestyle choice being made. I would love to know just how many mums are not BF so they can party.  I'd imagine it isn't that many.

Sadly the main reason I hear of women stopping bf due to lifestyle factors is cause they're having to go back to work after 14 weeks ppl. To me that's an issue around how much we value mothers and babies.  If 'society' and/or 'govt' recommendations is for BF up to 6 months then regulations and legislation needs to be changed to accommodate it.

My personal view on the bf/forumla debate is simple as long as your baby is getting the nourishment he/she needs, what does it matter how that is achieved.

I have actually been very impressed with Michael Laws (I know, it surprised me too).

He is pro-breastfeeding but not a breastfeeding nazi.  He's told people off for suggesting formula is unhealthy and mentioned that all of his children have used formula at one time or another. 

He is also calling for more support for mothers especially in the early days when BFing is being established.

I agree C&J that it is really sad so many people think they have to stop BFing when they go back to work.  I worked fulltime from when DD was 5 months old and still managed to feed her until 15mo (mixed feeding) and DS is still breastfed although I've worked part time since he was 9mo and start fulltime next week.

Aprilfools wrote: In saying that I do think that people who can not breastfeed despite best effort and the help of a lactation consultant should get formula on prescription at a subsidised price.

That is a great idea!

I don't think forumla should be on prescription, in doing that your treating formula as a medicinal product when its a nutritional one.  I have no problem with it being available from the supermarket like any other source of food.

Gluten free food is also a nutritional product but because I need it for medical reasons I am entitled to get it on prescription, subsidised by the government.  Although TBH I generally choose to buy it from the supermarket because it's easier and the brand choices are far more extensive.  I only bring it up again because the nutritional vs medicinal argument doesn't wash with me

Having said that I think that formula should continue to be readily available in supermarkets but agree that there should be far more support for the mothers that want it and need it and I like the idea of subsidising formula for baby's where the mother cannot breastfeed for medical reasons.

I'd be interested to know what the breast nazis have to say to the mothers that can't breastfeed.
The foster mums and mums of adopted babies, nanas and aunties that are raising babies that they havn't given birth to themselves.

I can see some merits in being available on prescription ie: subsidies etc don't agree that this should be the only way of obtaining formula.

I was 100% formula fed baby from birth as I was adopted and I'm as healthy as the next person.

caliandjack wrote: I don't think forumla should be on prescription, in doing that your treating formula as a medicinal product when its a nutritional one.  I have no problem with it being available from the supermarket like any other source of food.

lol I just *knew* I would disagree with you on this C&J . Formula is barely a nutritional product IMO. I agree totally with Mrs Mojo....it should be available when it's needed...not because it's more convenient.  And I also agree with you btw re: society not valuing mothers roles enough and not having enough support in place.  That, I'm sure, would make BF a much more viable option for so many more Mamas.

Oh and um...just cos you foster or adopt a baby doesn't mean you can't BF him/her.  And I don't think anyones being a BF 'Nazi'. BF supporters are trying to SAVE lives, not destroy them.

edited for my shocking spelling lol

Unless NZ is prepared to bottle breast milk what's the alternative. 
As I said before I would really love to meet the women who are formula feeding because its convenient or they want to party.
I don't know any FF mums who are doing it for either of those reasons.

Aethalia wrote: Gosh.... what did I start! I think there needs to be more support out there for BF. Here in Nelson there is only one lactation consultant at the hospital and her hours have recently been cut back to only 8 hours PER WEEK! This is for the whole of the Nelson area. Its no wonder mums that have a hard time and are not getting the support give up and go to formula. I completely understand the logic if someone cannot BF due to medical reasons, but to actually not do it cause they "are busy" is ridiculous. It takes much more time to formula feed than BF, getting the bottles ready, cleaning them etc.... I can see the merits of a prescription being needed, it would mean the mum would have to speak to a health professional first, and they may be able to suggest ways to help with BF. They would have to make it so that you can get a 6 month prescription like the pill, so you dont have to go back all the time.

You BF Nazi, you started a riot!  

I think it's a great idea. Firstly, cos new Mums would get proper support and education about BF, secondly, if there were a medical/pyschological reason they couldn't BF then what's the big deal in getting a script for formula? It would probably end up being cheaper than buying it at Woolies.

Oh and I can't remember who made the comment about not wanting to BF...well I guess that's an unusual thing to now want to do if you want a baby? But to me that would fall under a pysch problem. And I don't mean that in a bad way, just there would be issues there I assume that would make the thought of BF unpleasant iykwim?

jakspaksing wrote: emmecat call me ignorant most people do but how can you BF if you adopt or foster im abit confused.

you're most def not ignorant hun.  Most women produce milk and my understanding is that there are drugs you can take to help increase milk production so as long as you have a suckling baby then you ought to be able to BF 'even' an adopted child. I don't know when those drugs were introduced so can't address your comment C&J. But I assume that was the year you were born- which is similar to when I was- and I DO know that BF wasn't overly encouraged back then.

caliandjack wrote: Unless NZ is prepared to bottle breast milk what's the alternative.

The alternative is to BF. That's why we have breasts.

But yep a breast bank would be awesome to help out those Mums who are unable to BF for whatever reason.

So your saying grandmothers and aunties should be breast feeding?

caliandjack wrote: So your saying grandmothers and aunties should be breast feeding?

Um quite frankly....yes, why not if the need is there? Wet nursing is still better than formula and is the norm (or was until companies like Nestle got involved) in non western countries. *shrug*

*like* Emmi

I must admit I am always fascinated that starving and near-starving women who live in terrible conditions the world over manage to feed their children for years yet we in affluent, well nourished NZ are 'unable' to do so.  And that is a genuine puzzlement btw, not a veiled dig or criticism at anyone who has/is FF.

I think it's because mothering is not valued here as much, we don't have the proper support- family and otherwise- and quite frankly cos we *have* an 'alternative'. Albeit a poor one IMO.

Ok I'm getting a little peeved at BF SUPPORTERS being called Nazis. Once again, people are lumping some of us into a rather derogartory category just cos we have firm- and differing- views on something.  If I was going to play this personal attack game, I could comment that TBH the Nazi term (if we're gonna get to this level) would better suit FF mothers IMO. In my experience, they raise hell, fire and damnation at being able to 'keep their rights' to FF, but never mind about the baby.  But I don't come onto these threads and name call because there isn't a need to. It sounds to me like there's a lot of guilt hanging about for some people, perhaps cos they DIDN'T BF?! I don't know and that's not my call to make....but please stop being so damn negative and personal against each other.

Grrrrrrrr. Have you ever seen me write such a cross post????

I didn't think BF supporters were being referred to as BF Nazis, its people who say BF is the only way and anything different is unhealthy, bad for baby or are a bad mother that get labelled as Nazi's. The same people that think FF feeding makes you a bad mother.

I certainly don't think my mother was a terrible parent for not bf me, if my plunket book is anything to go by, I was happy to be fed.

But most BF supporters probably DO think breast is best, and that as Mums we need more support etc adn that we should do what we can to make sure we CAN BF our babies....so therefore we seem to fall into this category of 'BF Nazi's'.  I've never ever said anything derogatory about a FF mum so why the hell should they say something about me as a BF mother?

TBH I actually hate the idea of the government monitoring who feeds their babies what, for me it's more that as a society we are better educated and that the multinational complanies who produce this formula as a viable option where it's not needed, need to be addressed...hence my thinking that prescription is actually a good idea. It would allow access to formula but would mean the huge amount of $$ going into company pockets could instead be used for , oh perhaps more LC's, in-home support etc???

Don't kid yourselves that some baby loving CEO is pushing formula our way out of altruism.

Sorry I haven't read everyones posts, or listened to the radio - but if they think they can make buying formula through prescription only it's going to make the Doctor's VERY busy people and the people that are actually sick and NEED to see the Dr will lose out on appointments because they'll be taken up with people going to just get a formula prescription.

I don't see it ever happening to be honest.  A debate that is a waste of time because it's highly unlikely it'll ever go that way (formula on prescription only).

I need a drink.

And not of breast milk.

jakspaksing wrote: emmecat call me ignorant most people do but how can you BF if you adopt or foster im abit confused.

I'm not sure if this has already been answered because I haven't read all the way through yet.

To stimulate milk production a woman would need to regularly express or let someone suckle on their breasts.  You do not need to have a baby for your body to respond, but it does help because during pregnancy hormones that stimulate milk production are released into your body.  You can get synthetic hormones and lactation drugs can help too but neither are necessary so back in '73 it could be done.