A new debate. Religion.
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Topic: A new debate. Religion.
Posted By: fattartsrock
Subject: A new debate. Religion.
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 3:14pm
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Not looking for a hard out argument, but a couple of threads got me thinking....so I've got LOTS of questions cos Im curious to see how people think or feel.
I always wonder what it is about religion in general that people take "offence" to? I don't mean the different types of beliefs, either, I mean "on the whole". Why wouldn't you go to a music session or something similar cos it was run in or by a church group? What makes those families different? Do you think that they somehow judge your existence? Is that what makes you uncomfortable? Would you come to my house for a play date or heaven forbid a few drinks AFTER you found out I'm a practicing Catholic or would that put you off? And why? How does that make ME different? ( - cos I am still the hard core rock and roll chick I was before I found my peace! and my husband is so not keen on or in any way involved with the church, lol) I realise, reading a couple of threads in here today that for lots of you its about "covering all bases" IE different beliefs and not aliging to one particular faith or another. ..says she married to an athiest and who has just been confimed into the catholic church and sends kids to catholic pre school and school... Someone said "there are worse things your kids could do" and yes, I whole heartedly agree with this, having had the whole drugs/sex/booze/violence experience with the teen here. What is it about religion that scares you? And why wouldn't you be keen for your kids to be interested or experimenting? Personally, we haven't baptised the kids, mainly cos my husband said hell NO!, however I hope that one day they will come to it on their own, of their choosing, and I wouldn't be upset or put out if they didn't, each to their own and all that. And last word for me on the RE/School?Pre school thing... we have a number of muslim kids at our pre school, so our kids have a good idea about what muslims believe and those children participate in everything bar songs for and about Jesus, we also have some seventh day adventists and some other hard core "new wave" churchy people too, and whenever there is a "religious holiday" we talk about what everyone believes not just the good old Catholics! Discuss. ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Replies:
Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 3:43pm
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Disclaimer: I mean no offence to anyone about the below!
I am an atheist but have friends off all religions - it is not an issue to me, as long as my atheism isn't to them. I do dislike seeing children described as 'christian', 'muslim' etc based on their parents religion. I deeply believe it is an individual choice and not something that can be passed down to your children. After all, it would be thought bad taste to pass your political views on to your kids - you wouldn't say "that baby is a liberal' just because their parents are. How can anyone make their mind up about the world and what is truth before the age of reason? One of the reasons i am an atheist is due to the sheer number of religions past and present and the fact that most religious people follow the religion of their community and/or family. They can't all be right and are just 'blindly' believing what they are told. Why does no one believe in any of the Roman or Greek gods anymore? If somebody said they did they would not be taken as seriously or have the right to have these beliefs respected in the same way as more contemporary organised religions. Plenty scares me about religion - particularly extremists who are willing to commit atrocious crimes for their beliefs. I believe it is the place of moderates of their same religion to denounce these people but you rarely see that happen. I am also scared by the fact that it can be seen as wrong to question a religious person about their beliefs or ask them for proof of what they believe in, yet other personal choices e.g. politics are open to question. I will have no probelm with DD receiving religious education in school as like it or not, it is a big part of our world today and she needs an understanding of them. I will, however, l have a big problem if anyone tells my daughter she is a bad person for not believing in a particular religion or if RE in school puts across any one religion as being the whole truth. having said that, If she is in a school that teaches creationism as fact, i will probably remove her straight away . . . ------------- |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 4:38pm
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I wondered the same about the music thread too... We don't go to church and are not involved in any particular religion. However, I would have no problem at all my kids being exposed to religion through activities. I am envious of people who can believe so fully in whatever God it maybe. I think it would be a far nicer way too live. I often wonder how people come to believe so strongly? whether it is through their upbringing or life events that lead to it...
------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 5:21pm
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I was brought up in a religious home & we went to church & Sunday school. When we got older we did our own thing. I don't go to church but have no issue if I want to go.
DS1 wants to go to Sunday School as friend in his class go so we will look into that. The church has the mainly music group I went to with DS2&3 it also ran a coffee group for mums that I went to & it has a youth group DS1 goes to 1 night a week with friends from school. I am not interested in people knocking on my door with books & words of doom. I will stick to the religion I was raised with if I go to church. |
Posted By: jazzy
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 5:30pm
what you drink? ha ha  yip sure would. I got talking to a lady about my pram & we became great friends & she told me she was a Christian after a few coffee morning & she is the coolest chick ever, so I would not let something like that stop me from making great friends.
If I said we were all going to church DH would be quite happy even tho he was not brought up very religious. |
fattartsrock wrote:Posted By: MyLilSquishy
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:04pm
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I grew up with "Religious Education" at primary school and I am comfortably and happily Agnostic.
I have no problems with hanging out with religious people (of any religion) and I wont have a problem with my kids hanging out with religious friends/family either. i wouldnt send my children to a religious based school simply because my DP and I and our families are all Agnostic/Atheist and I don't want to make my child go somewhere that I don't believe in. i used to go to a baptist church's school holiday program and enjoyed it, but its just not for me. If DS (and future children) chose a religion, I would have no problem whatsoever with that. The thing that annoys me is the people that preach their religion and try to 'force it down your throat' (like jehovahs witnesses jamming their foot in your door to stop you from closing it or i've even had people following me down the street) I'm fine with people 'asking or letting me know' (ie. would you be interested in learning about [religion]?), and when not pushing the subject when i decline. (especially not pushing the subject with DS/future children. I want them to be able to choose for themselves.) and just went back to your origianl post lol. Religion doesnt scare me, its just not something I believe in. I'm more of a science chick hehe. what scares me is religious fanatics and extremeists.
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Posted By: gossamer
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:08pm
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Great idea for a thread, interested to read everyones replies. I'm a catholic too and my faith is very important to me, it shapes my life. I was not brought up Catholic, I chose it for myself, but I was exposed to the Anglican church when I was little (baptised and some sunday school).
But I do tend to keep it to myself, other than around my family and good friends. This is mainly because I know people judge others based on religion, and I feel like we as a family already are judged being that we are both young (23-24) and have two children...I worry that my daughter is looked at differently because all of the other mums at kindy are around 35 plus and all can relate quite well to each other. I guess I feel like my age/situation is a barrier already and I dont want to throw up another one by saying im a catholic! Writing that made me feel really bad, you should be proud of your religion and share it, and I want to, but I dont want to be known as the crazy religious one. I have to admit, in some ways I would love to preach to people, but I wouldn't DREAM of it, because people react so strongly to religion I know it wouldnt go well!! And I would never want to make someone feel like I was trying to push something on them. I understand that to others it may seem like there are a lot of different religions who all think they are right, but I am quite into research, so I involved a lot of that, and then I made the decision that felt right to me. Both my girls are baptised, we go to church on sundays, we pray together at home, their future school is catholic, but yes, it is up to them as they grow up to make their decision to stay with the faith that we have brought them up in, or to go elsewhere. I think it is appropriate to consider them catholic children as our 4 year old understands a lot and loves church and it forms part of her life everyday. ------------- T (6) A (2) Our angel baby Sep 2011 http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:20pm
What a good point! I'd never really thought about that...
I’m a Christian, and anyone who knows me would confirm that I do scientific pretty well. To the point where I think people must get a bit tired of me rabbiting on that if things like colloidal silver had real health benefits they’d be able to prove it, and scientific study isn’t a big conspiracy to force poison down our throats or something 
The two can work together. And I’m cool with being extreme – as in, feeling very strongly about something. But I really dislike people who expect the whole world to agree with them. Of course, I believe I’m right in what I believe. But so does my Hindu neighbour. So surely it’s not OK for either of us to insist the other believes what we do... I wouldn’t like it if she did that to me, and so why would I do that to her? -------------   
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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:23pm
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Good topic to start on Mission Sunday Annie I’d like to add something on to your OP. The statement I hear from lapsed Christians most regularly is "I'm not going to take my child to church etc as my child can choose what they want to believe when they grow up" which on the surface appears to be a great idea but I find it a very curious thing to say IMHO it's much like saying "I'm not going to teach my child English because they might want to speak French when they grow up".
Interesting you say that Susie, I will try and explain my pov. My children are both Catholic, they were baptised into the faith at 8 wks old and I have a certificate for each to say they're Catholic just as i have a certificate for each which says they're New Zealanders. When they're older they may decide not to go to church but they will still be Catholic just as they will still be kiwis even if they decide to move overseas. Baptising a child does not mean you are proclaiming they believe what you believe; it is far deeper and much more significant. Baptism is one of 7 sacraments of the Catholic faith. The traditional definition of a sacrament is this: "A sacrament is a visible sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace." At the risk of over simplifying something that is very complex, we could describe GRACE as God's free gift of Himself as the controlling influence in our life and the decisions we make once we have committed ourselves to Him in faith. As a baby cannot request baptism their parents will choose it for them, just as you may choose to immunise your child when they are too young to request it themselves. The sacrament of baptism is not us claiming that our child must believe what we believe, rather it is us requesting God's gift of grace upon our child to help them, guide them and protect them. -------------  
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Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:25pm
I struggle with the same thing, gossamer. What I believe is important to me... so I kind of would like to talk about it... but at the same time, I really wouldn't like to think that someone felt I was pushing something down their throats. I kind of see it as a bit of a personal thing in some ways... something you don't often tend to discuss in-depth until you have a relationship with someone. For example, a really good friend of mine is a firm atheist (raised Anglican) and we have the kind of relationship where we can openly ask each other questions about what we believe and give honest answers but not feel we're being judged for our beliefs. -------------
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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:30pm
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Albert Einstein, Nicolaus Copernicus, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendal, Louis Pasteur, Antione Lavoisier, John von Neumann, Enrico Fermi, Erwin Schrodinger, Fred Hoyle, Paul Davies..... I could fill a book with a list of groundbreaking scientists who were also devout believers -------------
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:39pm
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I can't believe I am halfway through a BA in Religious Studies and have nothing to add to this debate lol Except perhaps that IMO the more you 'study' a 'religion' without having faith, the more absurd they all seem (no offense). And actually how remarkably similar they all are..just with different bells and whistles. Also....even clarifying what constitutes a 'religion' is a HUGE debate that (believe me!) heaps of academics right this minute are having! -------------   http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:43pm
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Oh and you should totally read Richard Dawkins' book 'The God Delusion'. It's a fascinating read. Esp. the part where he compares the likelyhood of God existing to a Boeing 747 being put together by a hurricane swirling through a rubbish heap...or some similar analogy lol. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:48pm
This is another one of the points that i struggled with when it came to deciding how i felt . . . I may have this completely wrong, and welcome being corrected and would love to hear from a Catholic's point on this matter . . I have always understood that unbaptised people will not make it to heaven. What i never understood was how a child who passes before the age of reason could be judged for the choices of its parents. After all, a baby has never had the chance to say it wants to be baptised yet according to the Catholic faith the baby will be condemned to Hell (or purgatory as I think the latest Pope revealed) for eternity. I cannot weigh that up with the notion of a just and loving God. Again - i am so not wanting to offend anyone on this and if i am coming across that way i deeply apologise 
Edit to apologise for rubbish quoting skills! ------------- |
Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:51pm
I thought the 747 comparison was one the religious creationists used to argue against evolution?? will have to go and check my Dawkins books now! ------------- |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 6:55pm
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Ooohhh Susie you may well be right- I have been out of study for a year lol...I just remember the Boeing 747 bit and it was bloody funny I have the book on my shelf too and didn't even open it to quote the above so goes to show how rubbish my quoting skills have become ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 7:37pm
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Unfortunately there's all sorts of notions about what Catholics/Christians believe, not all of them are true. Just because a person isn't baptised doesn't mean they will be excluded from heaven, just as being baptised does not mean you will automatically get into heaven. Another analogy for you: I am an NZ citizen but that doesn't mean I have the right to be a free NZer indefinitely. If I break the laws of the country I forfeit my rights as free person. On the other hand someone who moves to NZ from another country doesn't automatically become excluded from free society and sent to prison because they don't have a NZ birthright. Does that make sense? -------------
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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 7:38pm
p.s. the funny quote is my fault, I edited in word and then copied into the forums. For some reason it stuffs up the quoting function -------------
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Posted By: Delli
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 9:04pm
I'll try to answer your questions as best I can but it's a hard topic (for me) to try and pin down exact feelings and reasonings on. So, I'll start off with the qualifier that I am Atheist and go from there.
I'm not offended by religion. I would be fine going to things run by a church group as long as there were not a huge amount of references to God, the Bible etc - It's not that I am offended by it, it's that I would feel uncomfortable and a bit like a fraud.
Nope and Nope.
Yep, if I was invited Just because I'm Atheist doesn't mean I mingle only with Atheists! And obviously just because you are Catholic does not mean you mingle only with Catholics (seeing as your Husband is not a Catholic I guess thats kinda impossible!)
Of course, it is impossible to teach thoroughly about all religions as there are just far far too many of them. But having a broad understanding of at least a few of the different types is great IMO (whether you are assigned to one faith or are not religious) as it helps promote tolerance. Even if you do not agree with their views or even entirely understand where they are coming from - even having that tiny bit of understanding is better than nothing or misunderstanding completely.
Now theres a tagline for you: Religion: Well, there are worse things.
This quote struck a chord with me in the other thread because it felt as if the poster was dismissing peoples concerns about religion, as in - "What would you rather? Your kid into religion or into drugs and alcohol? It's really not THAT bad and I think you are being a bit silly worrying about it." You say there could be worse things than kids being into religion - and I say there could be better things that kids could be into than religion.
Oh, there is plenty about religion that is scary to me! But then there is plenty about A LOT of things that is scary to me. Setting aside the problems with extremists and the fanatics - I think one of my main problems is that I am one of those "too PC" people everyone loves to hate and for me there are too many messages of intolerance promoted in too many of the religions.
I fully expect my children to go through stages of believing and not believing and experimenting with religion - showing an interest is great IMO and I'll do what I can to facilitate any interest and wouldn't have a problem dropping them off to church or youth groups etc if they wanted to.
Just curious - For those that are part of an organised religion and who are fine with their children choosing their own religions path - I think that is great but isn't it very scary for you? My understanding is that you have to believe in God to go to Heaven - what if your child doesn't end up believing in God? Wouldn't it be terrifying to think they wouldn't end up in Heaven if they died? This is why I try to be as tolerant as I can with religious door knockers and people that stop me on the street and friends and family as much as I would rather they didn't try to convert me - it would suck to be very worried about whether someone you knew was not going to get into Heaven even though they were good, but didn't believe in God at all. It has always seemed a bit weird to me that you could be a good unbeliever for your whole life and not go to heaven but could be a bad person all your life and repent on your deathbed and get to go to Heaven. Is that right? If not - my apologies
That's great and how I feel it should be - teaching tolerance towards all religions - and everyone! ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: MyLilSquishy
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 9:46pm
totally valid points and I get where you are coming from  maybe i should expand. im more of a science only chick lol. but i believe in the paranormal.... lol go figure a?! hehe
but yeah i didnt even think of those points lol. too much sewing today. my brain is mush
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Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 9:47pm
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Lol Delli, if I worried about who was going to heaven, that would probably be all I thought about, ha ha. Idon't even know if I'll "get in" - after all, belonging to a set religion isn't an entry card, ha ha.
Seriously, though, the kids aren't baptised cos hubby just isn't keen and if the kids aren't keen when they grow up, then that will be something that I have to deal with...Faith is closing your eyes and opening your heart. And, Father A assures me that just cos they aren't baptised dosen't exclude them from Heaven, so I have to just hope... Like Mrs Mojo I have to agree that there is a whole lot of misnomers/myths and misunderstandings about catholicsim. There is also a big difference in repenting and reconciliation...You might repent on your deathbed, but words are just words, its whats in your heart, and God knows what is in your heart (so if you mean it or not). ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 9:49pm
I could have written that, word for word. ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: Blankney94
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 9:58pm
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I am open to all religions and am open minded - though I practice no religion. I have loved travelling the world and visiting churches, cathedrals, The Vatican, mosques etc. Was surprised at how well we were received at the mosques in the Middle East. But: I don't like it when someone tries to shove their beliefs down my throat. I believe that religious extremism is one of the leading causes of war - not peace. And I don't like it when I am excluded from an opportunity because I am not a member of the "flock". (I noticed at my last work that people who were members of one particular church were becoming a disportionate percentage of our staff.) Oh and one more thing - I don't like it when some religious people act like they have a superiority complex. I realise that not all religious people are irritating in the ways mentioned above, in fact very few. But these are my thoughts - please don't take offence. I've questioned my spirituality over the years and even had a dabble myself, and the above summarises the beliefs of my journey thus far. Adding a bit more here - I believe that what goes around, comes around. So it people do wrong a 'higher power' will balance that out. I believe that if people do good, then good things will come to them. Some people call this karma. So yes, I believe in a higher power - but don't give it a name or formalise it like the church. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 9:58pm
I agree with this, for me , I prefer the idea of my children finding their own religious path, whatever that may be, I don't personally follow enough of the christian ways imo to call myself a christian without feeling like a hypocrite but I DO believe in God,and Heaven and all of that, In my head tho, God has always been sort of a grandfatherly figure, a friend to me, and I talk to C about him as such , but she knows she has the option to persue whatever religious or non religious avenue she wants. I've always said that as long as my kids believe in themselves the most, then thats all that matters to me I'm not afraid of other religions tho, I love learning about other religions, all of them bring something new and interesting to the whole table of life ------------- 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 10:08pm
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And also.
I don't bring my children up telling them they are christian,because I'm not christian in my mind to do that , I love and believe in God but I certainly don't practice my faith, perhaps if I did, I would say they were, but no, I still prefer them to follow their own paths. (within reason, I don't want them following a path of drugs and debauchary ) This is the way MY God works. Good people go to Heaven whether they have been baptised or not. Children go to Heaven and good people who are good but just haven't been christened also hang out up there. I will not, and REFUSE to listen to any other theory. My beautiful friend that died was a good person, she just wasnt baptised and there is no way in Hell (excuse the pun ) that I am going to believe she is anywhere else but up there. Same with my Grandma. I HAVE to believe this, if I didn't their loss would be even more unbearable Oh and Annie, when is this invite for drinks taking place? -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: blondy
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 10:12pm
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Really interesting thread
I was brought up in a non-religious household, but both my parents had been brought up in Presbytarian and Church of England ones (although I think with my Dad, it was more of a social/habit thing as it used to be in the UK rather than actually believing in anything) For unknown reasons to me (never got the chance to ask!), both Mum and Dad chose to raise us that way, and we were never christened/baptised etc. We were raised to be accepting of all religions, but to take everything with a grain of salt - for example, Mum still believed in a 'higher power' but didn't agree with the formality/setup of the church. That's kind of how I feel - I believe I'm a spiritual person, and live my life doing what I think to be 'right'; I deeply believe that what goes around comes around, so I try and live that way. We have many (in fact a majority) of Christian friends, as well as friends of other religions, and we all get along great, mainly because we're all tolerant of what each other believes. I don't feel comfortable being in a church for the purposes of worshipping (including singing at weddings etc), because I feel very hypocritical, and it actually makes me feel really bad to sing/say things I don't believe in - which is why I'm still a tiny bit uncomfortable with DD going to Mainly music (but she LOVES it, and doesn't yet know what the words mean, so we haven't reached that bridge yet! ).... and that doesn't mean I'm scared of it, simply that I'm transferring my anxiety onto her of saying things that really mean something to Christians, but are just words to me.
So generally I'm completely accepting of all religions, however, a couple of incidences have made me quite sad that SOME christians (and no doubt other religions too) can be discriminatory and condescending...... one was my mother deciding in the last weeks of her life that she really did want to have a christian funeral - something we were ok with - but the pastor who visited with her in those last few weeks insisted on the whole family participating in her visits on 'converting' Mum back to christianity, something my sister and I felt very strongly against (after all, Mum's decision had nothing to do with us at 18/16 years old) and we even now still dislike that we were put in such a hard place (there's no way we were going to object given how ill Mum was! ).
The second was a normally well-meaning friend (who I now hope was being truly naive in thinking about what she said) - saying to me right after Mum's funeral that she was sad she wasn't going to spend all of eternity in Heaven with all of her friends 
Anyway, I really truly believe in live and let live, and feel that just because I don't participate in a religion, it doesn't mean I'm any less spiritual or less of a good person. Oh, and totally  Richard Dawkins! -------------  
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Posted By: gossamer
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 10:18pm
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MrsMojo has already answered, and very well, in regards to a baby not being condemned because they were not baptised. I just wanted to add, its not the 'not being baptised', that is considered wrong. It is knowing of the faith, and choosing to go against it. So equally, from my understanding, if someone was to live their life without ever hearing of the faith, then they too could not be condemned, as they did not have the chance to believe.
Delli - yes, it is a very scary thought for me that my children could choose another path in life. But I am doing the best that I can to prepare them and teach them what I believe is right. Thats all you can do in many ways - I mean, is it a scary thought that your child could turn to drugs in life? Yes, and there is no way to fully prevent against it, but you do the very best you can to equip them with the knowledge to make the right decision. My parents, although they are curious and sometimes come to church with me, would not consider themselves religious. Same with my closest friends. It makes me sad to think they wouldn't end up in Heaven...but, I choose not to preach to them because I would never want them to feel I was forcing it on them. But here lies the motivation for those that preach - they believe they are doing the right thing in trying to help everyone to be saved. I believe in God as a loving god, and for that reason I don't believe a truly good person would be condemned. But maybe they won't go straight to Heaven after death. Being a Catholic means I believe in the purification that occurs in purgatory...but thats another story... fattartsrock - I guess its a common thing then, feeling like you need to hide it? Which is sad I suppose but it can be a lot easier than being judged. Just wanted to add, religion fascinates me, and the way it is based on historical fact. I am not talking about just Catholicism, I mean all faiths. There is history behind all of them and I think they are all valid to their people in their own way and all very important. If a Mormon comes to my door, despite our contrasting views, I always take the time to talk to them, take the reading material, explain how I see things, and also to tell them I think they are doing a great job. That may seem odd, but the way I see it, they are trying to do good work, and they truly care for the people in the community, and they would get a lot of abuse. Even if you disagree with what they are about, they are doing it with good intentions. ------------- T (6) A (2) Our angel baby Sep 2011 http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Delli
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 10:25pm
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Just to clarify in case I was misunderstood - I wasn't talking about people who haven't been christened or baptised etc, there are definitely people who still believe in God who haven't been through those processes.
I was talking about people who do not believe in God at all. Who die - still not believing in God. In my mind the logical thing would be that if they had been a good person (despite their not believing in God) they should be admitted into Heaven if there actually turned out to be one. However, I have heard quite a number of times that people should repent and start believing in God otherwise they won't go to Heaven (even if they had otherwise been a model citizen). When I query them that if a person had been bad all their life and had repented on their deathbed (in their heart) they would get admitted to Heaven - they say yes. And that doesn't seem fair to me
Hopefully, that explains it better though I'm not sure it does. What I was trying to say had nothing to do with whether a person had gone through formal church processes like baptism or christening etc - only about whether they believe or not. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 24 October 2010 at 11:41pm
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I agree Delli, and my friend certainly didn't follow the word of God, I don't think she really believed in him either.
But she was kind, caring, funny and compassionate so imo she deserved to go to Heaven, she certainly didn't deserve to go to Hell, and since I don't believe that we just die and thats that, as far as im concerned, shes in Heaven. And people can argue with me all they like on how she can't be if she didn't believe in it etc, at the end of the day its what I need to believe to get through the days when I miss her....the belief I WILL see her again -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: gossamer
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 1:48am
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Kelly, I know exactly what you are saying, and I still question it, I think thats part of life and part of learning. Although it is said that if you turn away from God, then you will not get to heaven, I have many family members who have passed on who were not religious, and I think of them in heaven also. And no one can change my mind on that either!
Delli - its a really difficult one, but my explanation would be, it is that those who hear of the faith, and hear of Jesus, and choose not to believe, despite being good people, are not known to God because they have not had a relationship with him and so they do not go to Heaven. But like I wrote above, I really struggle with this myself, but for me thats part of my religion, and I have faith that as I learn more and I experience more in my life I will understand more. I see God as the heavenly, loving Father, who cares for us all, and for that reason, he hopes for us to repent, and even if that is on your deathbed, He would be overjoyed. And I like to think that even after that there is hope, but thats just me, I don't know if others think like that! Just my interpretation anyway, thats how I like to see it. I know people always have a lot of questions for people who believe in God and I think its important for me to say at least, that I have heaps of questions as well, and just because I believe doesn't mean I take it all at face value and say, "because the church says its true, it is". ------------- T (6) A (2) Our angel baby Sep 2011 http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: susieq
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 6:33am
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I do as kelly knows believe in Church and Kelly was baptised as were her siblings Church of England, and I am pretty sure her Great Grandma on her paternal side was a presbyterian, her dad was baptised presbyterian and confirmed Church of England. I have her Great Grandmas bible which her grandmothe gave me must pass it on to her me thinks
------------- susie |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 7:18am
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We were brought up more or less Presbytarian bu my daughter is baptised Catholic as DF is Catholic and it was way more important to him what she 'is' than to me. I was more concerned that she was vegetarian so we had a trade off lol ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: MyLilSquishy
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 7:58am
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i have a question (to anyone who believes in heaven/hell)
If someone doesnt believe in God/Jesus and Heaven/Hell (or equivalent... sorry not being rude)..... Where do people believe they 'go' after they die. If being Agnostic/Atheist means no Heaven, then im assuming (perhaps wrongly) that they would not go to Hell either..... so what happens to them? (whether they have been good or bad during their life) and whats the difference between the different 'branches' of Christianity? (catholic, baptist, anglican etc).....not a rude question... ive just never understood how they are different. And is there division between the different 'branches' the way there is (sometimes) division between 'whole religions' - ie christian, jew, muslim etc... Hope I havent asked rudely or anything. Don't really know how else to word it lol. |
Posted By: E&L+1
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 8:43am
I don't believe in a set religion although I was christened as a baby. I wouldn't say I don't believe there isn't a higher being however I don't believe in god. BUT I do have a belief in life after death. I believe we come a part of the world so in essence 're-born' into all parts of nature and in that way we continue to care for those who we have left behind. As a teenager I read the dark materials trilogy and that had a chapter where all the spirits who were essentially in a nothing land were released back into nature and it seemed feasible to me. Funny to be basing a believe on a novel I know! But on the whole I don't really think about it . I'm interested between the different branches of Christianity as I have no idea what I was Christened as, must ask my parents that one! ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 11:00am
that is so me too! ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 11:38am
All of this though are not just related to matters of religion. when you get a group of people together no matter for what reason all of these have happened. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: jano1
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 11:51am
This is not a personal attack but raises the questions for me as to why people who see themselves as religious think (although wouldn't act om it as you have pointed out) that there is a need for unconverted types to be preached at? My personal beliefs are my own and I wouldn't dream of preaching to a christian, muslim or whatever religion the wealth of scientific knowledge that is out there to explain the history of this planet. As a biologist I am happy with the answers I have sought as to how/where we came from and got to where we are now. That's not to say I am not a spiritual person, the two are not mutually exclusive ------------- http://www.thebump.com/?utm_source=ticker&utm_medium=UBB&utm_campaign=tickers"> |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 11:53am
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Another thing some people have trouble understanding is that just because one may be baptised etc and brought up in a christian household, christianity and every religion really, is something more that you choose in your heart, IMO.
Like the saying goes, going to church makes you a christian no more than standing in a garage makes me a car -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 11:56am
there is - to me - a difference between sharing your joy and knowledge in something and trying to get someone to acknowledge your way is the only way. I think if you are genuinely proud and pleased of your religion then why not share your views. You dont have to be crazy to do so! or do it in a crazy way! ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: susieq
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 11:59am
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i love going to church, and love to take my granddaughter and hopefully my grandson one day and future granddaughter and try to encourage Kelly once a month ------------- susie |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 2:37pm
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I am a Christian, and I have friends of all different beliefs/religions/whatever. I don't see why it would matter exactly. I go to a baptist church but class myself as no particular denomination, because I don't think it should matter. There are always going to be some intolerant people which is a shame.
I also hate that people shove their beliefs down your throat. People try and shove evolution down your throat, which I hate, especially since 9 times out of 10 I know more about the science than they do and I remain unconvinced. My Biomedical Science major at university was Reproduction and Development, which contained a lot of learning about evolutionary theory, and I've done a lot of my own research as well. There are many scientists out there that believe in creation theory, and just as much evidence to support it. But did you know that if a scientist openly admits they don't believe in evolution, they can't get published in scientific journals? How is that for biased. Recently there was even a Chistian scientist that was excluded from receiving a Nobel Prize, even though he came up with the winning theory, and his colleagues got the Prize instead of him. The theory had nothing to do with Creation or evolution, and despite him being the brains behind the operation, he was denied the prize on the basis that he could not understand basic science because he was a Christian. Anyway that is a whole other debate. Personally I think that not believing in God because of evolutionary theory is a cop-out, since there is the same amount of good evidence out there that supports Creation theory. It just simply isn't as highly publicised. Anyway I'm rambling because I'm tired
I don't think that my children attending Church makes them any more Christian than being in MacDonalds makes them a cheeseburger. (Dumb saying I know). The decision to believe in God is theirs to make at some stage. I really hope they do decide to be Christian. I also hate religious wars - I'm amazed at the number of people that seem to think that I either agree with them or just deny their existence. As far as I'm concerned, it is completely wrong and intolerant. God is about love. I'm not exactly sure how "Christian" people can justify violence and murder if they have ever read the ten commandments. I get annoyed when people come door-knocking with books and things. Good on them for being passionate about their beliefs, but personally I would rather develop a better relationship with someone before talking about something so personal. Same goes with people who say "it's a shame so-and-so won't be in heaven"  No one knows what someone's relationship with God is like. It is between him/her and God. I don't know how anyone could pass judgement on something like that.------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: fire_engine
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 2:49pm
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Hmmm, this is getting too deep and meaningful for a holiday weekend
I guess that I see a difference between religion and faith. To me, religion is more of a "system" if you like whereas a Faith is a personal thing between you and God (or who/what you choose). I think a lot of harm has been done in the name of religion when it is actually completely against the core beliefs of the religion/faith. I am a Christian and attend a Baptist church. Brought up Brethren but have also attended Presbyterian and Anglican churches. For me, it's not about the denomination (and TBH, I don't understand enough about the subtleties of the different denominations to explain them to myself or anyone else!), it's about the character of the church (is it inwardly focused on money, back-patting, cliques) or outwardly focused (helping others, giving to the community, developing relationships). I have no issues with combining God and science. My family is very scientifically focused, my uncle is a Physics professor and has just written a book that explores how the Bible and science, including evolution, big bang theory etc aren't mutually exclusive. I can't understand it but DH says it's compelling
I have no issues with God creating the world and with sin. I struggle with hell and eternal damnation. Interestingly, my church was originally a Church of Christ which has different views on hell to many other churches - I *think* that what they believe is that when you die you effectively go to a state of sleep and when Christ returns to earth, everyone goes through a period of judgement. At this time, people go to Heaven, hell (for the truly evil) or life just ends. Please don't ask me more about it cos I don't understand it (though I should look at it more) but to me, I like that system - more than the straight heaven and hell scenario. However, one thing about Christianity is that it's not always nice and pretty - God is a very strong, loving God but he's also pretty fierce and makes some black and white calls that aren't always pleasant or PC and I think people struggle with believing or accepting them. I know I do. My DH and I would be gutted if DS chose not to be a Christian. It is something we see as our responsibility as parents - to introduce him to, and model our faith. However, we also believe in free will and would not (could not) force him to accept our faith as we see it as an intensely personal choice. I do struggle to talk about my beliefs. I feel like I have to have an answer for all the gritty un-PC stuff about Christianity and I don't. I should do more reading about it and try and understand it more. I would hate to be seen as someone who tries to force their beliefs on others and b/c of this, even if there was something really good on at church (e.g. Mainly Music, weekly cafe which is just a social thing), I would be really reluctant to invite someone in case it was perceived as being pushy. So don't know if that offers anything to the discussion ------------- Mum to two wee boys |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 2:52pm
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Flissty, you sound like you have very similar beliefs to mine! I agree with pretty much all of your post. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 2:52pm
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Little Bug . .. where is the evidence for creation theory? I have looked but the only things i can find try to give evidence against evolution, not for creation . . . ------------- |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:07pm
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Much of the same evidence that is used for evolutionary theory can also be used for creation theory. The facts are still the same, it's the interpretation that is different.
I will try and find some articles for you. Most of the stuff I have read has been in hard print journals but I will try find some online at some stage. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:10pm
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Susiec, are you from a science background? ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: sunnyhoney
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:22pm
Unfortunately even if you are sharing/do share...people often come back at you saying that we are shoving down their throats. At least that's what I have had said to me in the past and I wasn't trying to convert anyone. I really identify with you ladies who are not confident sharing your faith. Sometimes it feels no matter how we go about it, there is always someone who is going to judge us, lump us in with the extremists, or say we are shoving our beliefs onto them. BTW Delli, sorry If I offended you (or others) in the MM thread. I wasn't trying to be inconsiderate of others concerns. My "it could be worse" statement was meant to be light hearted. ------------- Mum to: Joy Emily 1.05am 27/09/07 7lb 3oz Austin Paul 12.47pm 18/04/10 10lb 8oz |
Posted By: gossamer
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:23pm
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jano1 - I didnt take it as an attack at all, we all have our own opinions. For me, its not that I think there is a need for me to preach to unconverted people, its that I feel like I know all about this great thing, and I want to share it! I think anyone knows that feeling, to know about something great that has improved your life. It's not that I feel I have the right to tell someone else how they should live their life.
Bizzy - I really appreciate your comments, I do feel like I can't share my opinions publicly because religion is a bit of a touchy subject. LittleBug - really like what you have to say in regards to creationism...correct me if I am wrong, but I think science accounts for the existence of a higher being or force? ------------- T (6) A (2) Our angel baby Sep 2011 http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:35pm
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Thanks Little Bug - all the research i have found is a bit fundamentalist to me and the researchers seem to have an agenda to push their faith which is why i am sceptical of it.
i wouldn't say i have a science background really - not academically anyway, just out of my own interests as a lay-person! I think one of the things we should all be thankful for is that we are living in a country and at a time where we can have this debate, and freely choose to be whatever religion we want or don't want without fear of recrimination. There are lots of places still around today where we could not be so free and frank! ------------- |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:37pm
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There are hallmarks for 'intelligent design' everywhere in science, gossamer. But that's a whole other debate. To me, evolutionism is a religion, because you need to make just as many presuppositions as you do for creationism. The way facts are interpreted depends on the presuppositions that you give to the facts. So the same facts turn into "evidence" for both evolution and creation, depending on interpretation.
This is way too deep for a public holiday.
This site has some interesting information on Creation theory from a Christian point of view, in layman's terms (so not too technical, in case you don't have a science background): http://creation.com/young-age-of-the-earth-universe-qa - Creationism and a Young Earth Anyway, we are getting off track. Creation isn't the discussion, the discussion is religion. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: sunnyhoney
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:38pm
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Denominations:
http://www.suite101.com/content/religious-denominations-a209491 - Link 1 http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations/comparison_charts.htm - Link 2 http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/denominations.htm - Link 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination - Link 4 These websites might prove useful. I've only had a quick look...but found it by searching "differences in denominations" on Google. Lots of the pages have links to other pages. ------------- Mum to: Joy Emily 1.05am 27/09/07 7lb 3oz Austin Paul 12.47pm 18/04/10 10lb 8oz |
Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 3:49pm
There are a number of reasons for this: 1) It is 'unpopular' for scientists to believe in Creation, and there is a huge bias in general Scientific publication against Christianity. For this reason, it is hard to find scientific research for creation theory that has not been funded by a religious group. 2) It is hard to separate evidence about "intelligent design" from discussion about a God. The Bible is the only 'historically credible' text that contains information about the creation of the world, so in a discussion about creation there is likely to be reference to the Bible. 3) Evolution theory is grounded in agnostic or atheist religion and their research has an agenda to push their faith. The same goes for creation theory and Christianity. You tend to get one or the other, in fact I think it's impossible to get an unbiased theory. I could go on all day but I'm meant to be working on my midwifery assignment  Talk about procrastination!------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 4:22pm
Hey... that's what I believe too. Well, kinda... but the basic gist is the same. -------------
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Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 6:57pm
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Great discussion!
I am catholic as is my DH and we are raising our son's in the faith. It is misunderstood a lot and there is a stigma attached to being christian/catholic. I was raised catholic and have looked into other religions when i was young and have friends of various beliefs and religions. But For me I chose God and chose to beleive in the catholic faith. I think faith is a choice, and a way of life. I try to live what i believe, hard at times!! We are raising our boys catholic as this is our faith, what our family believes, our morals/values are heavily grounded in it. To not raise them in what we believe would be leaving them out/ excluding them from our lives/family or beliefs. If they chose not to believe then that's what happens. God gave us free choice. We will be here to support them in their choice. I can't separate faith from who I am and it's part of me. ( gee that's a bit deep!)
One thing that deeply saddens me is that truely evil, evil people hide in churches/ faiths/ religions and prey on the young children and eldery. These are not people of God and are not a representation of the faith/religion.But give the religion a bad name , this makes me and -------------  
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Posted By: _H_
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 7:54pm
i agree with this. No matter what your relationship is (or isnt) with god its a very personal thing and no two people have the same relationship with god. In saying that im open to all religions and enjoying learning about them but i have my own beliefs so you dont need to try and force yours down my throat. i work with a lady who is Hindu and often ask her questions about her religion (normally because i notice things) and its like she is scared to talk about it. i wont be asking if i wasnt interested!
when i was in college i had a freind that didnt really know much outside her own religion. she couldnt understand why people did things and i found this really sad. not that she was religious (its good to have beliefs) but because her parents had brought her up in a bubble. i know that this isnt the case with most people so please nobody take it the wrong way, i just think it is important to be open minded with your kids and actually in your own life ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 8:29pm
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I don't believe in hell as in fire and brimstone and demons etc. Thats "Hollywood". And interestingly, Father A doen't either. He basically said that this earthly life is as good or as bad as it's going to get, depending on which way you go. That your persoanl hell is what you would be "doomed" to live with for all eternity. That made me feel better about the whole "hell" thing, cos while I get great comfort in thinking Oh, I'll see so and so there, I am damn sure my Dad isn't there and my mother won't be going either, and I don't even know for sure if I'll "get in" lol.
Someone said about why don't we feel comfortable telling people about it? Cos I hate having things "shoved down my neck" and if its not soemthign you are comfortable with then any talk of it is automatically "shoving down the throat" - think the eternal BF vs FF debate...
But I do want to tell EVERYONE about how rosy my life has been and how happy I have been since I turned my life back to the church. So cliche. but hey?!
And what made me "take the leap"? I was brought up anglican, fully involved etc, then got into youth for christ as a teen, visited many different denominations, went to n depth bible study classes etc, but at about 17 or 18 I just wanted to be "cool" and for boys to like me instead of being the eternal wingman, so I ditched it all. My faith has always been three, but I wanted to wait till God spoke to me, and I do beleive I had my sign when we nearly lost my mum on good friday, and I prayed so hard, so hard and on easter sunday ( coincidence?) she turned the corner. There is a part of the prayer my 5 y/o says in class that speaks to me... "In the silence of my heart I speak to God and listen when God speaks to me" and that is what I believe happened to me. When we got home and Jake started school, I wandered over to the parish office and signed up for "learn to be catholic" classes (not called that, lol) and since then I feel like I have sunshine in my life again. I also chose the Catholic church as I have always felt an affinity towards it. I love the tradition of it, the fact I can go to Mass anytime anywhere and it will be the same thing more or less, and I'm not listening to some enigmatic preacher telling me about his take on the good book. I like the simplicity, the traditions and the old fashioned values. I feel at home, most importantly. I feel deeply ashamed and emabarrassed that people of religion (not just the Catholics) take advantage of children/elderly etc and I think tht takes away alot of the good that churches do for community or families. I really dislike OTT in your face religion, not my cuppatea at all, but each to their own. Its just ot my scene. and extremeism is scary. And as for religious wars. Dumb. ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: myonlineself
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 8:52pm
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This is a very interesting thread.... I don't want to offend anyone with the following, its just my opinion... (in fact its actually mainly the opinion of my DH that I've come to agree with). I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic school but now consider myself an atheist.
I am a scientist. I don't believe in God. I think religion has done a lot of harm in the world. I think that believing in God and 'talking' to God is pretty illogical and a bit weird and I really don't understand it at all. Because I don't believe in God at all and am not a fan of religion and 'faith', I would rather not take my child to a mainly music type thing and sing a whole lot of songs about God..... I don't want to have a preschooler coming home from preschool telling me she has "Jesus in her heart" (a work colleague had that after her daughter went to a holiday program run by the City Impact Church)... children are so impressionable, and I don't want my children's minds filled with that sort of stuff.... Ugh - reading back over that makes me sound kinda extreme .. I'm really not - I just don't believe in any of it, don't really understand anyone who does, and would rather any children of mine were a little older before being exposed to the ideas of religion and God. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 9:29pm
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TBH that's something I find quite curious. I don't believe that Kylie Minogue actually saw a monkey riding on a white horse with rings on it's fingers and bells on it's toes but my son loves that song (from The Wiggles Go Bananas!) and I have no trouble with him singing it. Similarly I don't believe in fairies (gosh I hope they're not real because if they are somewhere one just died -------------
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Posted By: mum24
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 10:18pm
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I don't believe you can talk about God and religion in as if they were the same. Religions are the belief systems developed by man, not God. Some religious beliefs and practices couldn't get much further from God and His plan. They are about man looking for justification for appalling acts over the centuries, you know, holy wars, burning human beings the list is long. None of which I think God has condoned.
I am also curious as to way people have issues with their child being involved in church and christian activities when often the same people will allow them to interact with the opposite, such as movies based in magic and witchcraft of about monsters and vampires etc. Why stories about about a man who sent his son to save the world cause more harm to a child than say Harry Potter stories? Also there is plenty of sound evidence for a belief based on creation, and the bible is in fact largely proven to be an accurate historical record. Just my opinion, but I grew up i a protected, sheltered home and church environment, I still had and have free will to make my own choices about my view of the world and life. I also had a strong sense of personal responsibility and to treat others how I want to be treated. Not to judge people for their own choices and not to be swayed by everything that I see but to think critically and carefully. |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 10:28pm
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I'm atheist but I don't really have a problem with religion in general, however I do think it has a lot to answer for in terms of war, however I also expect if man hadn't fought over religion they would have found something else to fight about, still no one can argue that there has been no atheist war...not yet anyway.
I have no issues mingling with religious people and we have some good friends who are very very religious, i.e home schooled cos regular school is full of sinners, they pay money to their church straight from their pay packets etc etc. We question them, in a nice way, they question us, also in a nice way. Although, and I say this cos I know they don't come on here, they are totally deluded, believe the earth is 6000 years old, think dinosaurs were planted by evil people to try to undermind the bible etc etc oh and get this, they had been told Hitler was atheist and he killed jews cos he considered them to be less evolved, ok then. I set them straight on that one.This made me realise one thing though and that was how people become extremists, they have led very sheltered lives even in nz and if their church tells them that the sky is red, that cows fly and eggs come from sheep and that anyone that tells you different has been tainted by the devil they believe it, they are that indoctrinated. That scares me, that level of unquestioning believe in something because that can lead people to do crazy things in the name of a god because some nutcase running a church has told them to. And we question them they don't go off and look into things, they go and ask the pastor and normally come back with a response that is even more out there. I have took the boys to music ran by a church and they have never sung a single religious song, otherwise I probably wouldn't have took them back, cos it would feel wrong to be there partaking in something we don't believe in (as for the fairies and other make belief songs the thing with that is everyone thinks it's make believe, it's different as someone who doesn't believe to just sing along with a song that has such huge meaning to others, I hope that makes sense). They gave out an angel with the boys pics on at xmas, I wasn't offended I thought it was sweet and kind, and they had santa come in as well which was all fine with me as we do xmas. I'm not big on christmas personally but rightly or wrongly I go along with it to appease other people in my life who it does have meaning for, when the kids are older we will tell them the history of xmas but we won't be placing any religious belief into it, just explaining the religious belief behind it and I will also explain to them as best I can why we still celebrate it even though we don't believe in the religious part. I went to look at two church ran preschools and ruled them both out just on that basis when they started telling my about prayer time etc (I thought they might be church ran but not preachy), it just doesn't fit with what we believe and I wouldn't want the kids being taught something we don't believe in anymore than I would want them being taught any other religion. If the kids pick to follow a religion/belief when they are older that is fine but as for teaching we shall be teaching them why we don't believe in any gods or high power of any sort, the same as those that do believe a certain religion would be teaching their children that. This is one thing I wonder cos I have read quite often about atheists being evil and devil worshippers etc, and I find that really odd, cos I no more believe or worship the devil than I do god. Why do some religious followers think atheist are devil worshippers? Just asking? |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 10:49pm
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My daughter went to music and movement for years,and she never came home proclaiming she had "christ in her heart"
All children hear is music, and they dance, my son dances to Men in Black, he doesn't care about the words, just the beat......by the time they are old enough to actually understand what the words mean, they are usually too old for Music and movement anyway. And Jo, fairies are real, I saw one just the other day, she was pretty and sparkly....I hope its not her you just killed -------------
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 25 October 2010 at 10:51pm
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When are the drinks Annie??? I was baptisted Church of England when I was 13. I choose to and my parents supported me. My parents were never big on religion and it was never a big part of our house (like it is now in my house). However they let us choose what we wanted and supported us (by coming to our baptism's. Andrew has just started having religious instruction (such a weird name if you ask me) at school and is learning thing (I personally see some of the people that do this at schools as brain washers but that is MOI) about god and religion, which I don't mind. DH has never been baptisted and is a true athiest, also doesn't want Andrew to talk about god at home from what he learns at school. I have explained to Andrew that some people beleive in him and others don't. Mummy does but she doesn't go to church, and daddy doesn't but that is ok. I really dislike people shoving religion in my face and coming to house to tell me about it - don't like this. We have had a longtime friend become a JW and we are not impressed. I think he has been brainwashed and what upset me the most is that his wife and children did not go into his mothers church for her funeral at the beginning of the year. It upset me and my friends who knew if Sally knew what was happening she would of been so angry. So what am I getting at, I don't mind religion that is fine, don't shove it in my face and I am happy. Would I go to church, for sure I have no problem with that. Baptism - that is my childrens choice like it was mine. So Annie again when is the invite to drink and rock? ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
, and can we rock out to Bon Jovi???? Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:05am
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I forgot to add yesterday that I believe that people who claim to be Christians and then judge others are hypocrits. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" Just my opinion and in no ways a judgement -------------
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Posted By: _H_
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:45am
like! ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 9:52am
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Haha Jo! when I went to church with Caitlyn , age 20, unmarried etc etc I walked past 3 old biddies who were glaring at me and baby Caitlyn and clearly talking about my "badness " and I walked past, turned, looked at them and said that exact quote.
Another thing, which is neither here nor there in the religious debate, just something I thought I would share, is a couple of weeks after I had C I took her to the church I went to with friends, I felt so looked down upon, it was clear noone approved and none of them even wanted to look at my baby. Then the following week I took C to my parent's church and the one I have gone to all my life. Upon leaving church, when you say goodbye etc to the reverend I was holding Caitlyn, wanting to hurry and get out of there. The reverend stood in front of me, looked a long time at Caitlyn all wrapped up, and with the most sincere voice touched my arm and said "what an absolutely beautiful baby, you're so lucky to recieve such a special gift from God, well done " For someone already thinking, " crap, what the heck am I gonna do now ?" his words meant so much to a scared nervous new mum, he was right, she WAS a gift and I decided from that day on to think of her as such -------------
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Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:00am
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Wow, interesting reading.
I am of no faith and don't believe in god, heaven or hell. Someone asked before where we think we go after death if we don't believe in god and my answer is nowhere, IMO death is the end of that persons life and soul and they only live on in the memories of others. Some may find that depressing but personally I find fondly remembering a loved one who has passed more comforting than them in a heaven that I can't imagine. In saying this, I am completely respectful of others' choice to follow any religon, whatever it may be and I would always try and be respectful of their beliefs and any customs of the religon. I went to a full catholic mass on Wednesday for my DH's grandmas funeral. Was certainly an interesting experience. I found it fairly strange and unusual and I'll admit at some points such as where the congreation would be chanting something to what the priest had said, I found it quite unsettling, however I sat there quietly, took it all in and was happy that for some people the service gave them peace. I found it very impersonal to the person who had died though and much prefer a non-demoninational service which tends to be all about the person. Anyway, I went off topic, I have no issue at all with my child being exposed to any manner of religons, going to music groups run by churches etc, they're not going to be "brainwashed" by singing a few songs about god, and frankly, if they do end up being a believer I don't see the harm. Many have said that they want their children to choose their own path, how can they if they aren't exposed to all the possibilities? ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: fire_engine
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:10am
Though Christians are only human ------------- Mum to two wee boys |
Posted By: IVFGirl1111
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:18am
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I really don't want to get into the debate of it all (although this discussion is really tame so well done girls)!
BUT my question is, if there really was a god - then why does the bad stuff happen to the good people? Like why did my best friend get killed when she herself was a Christian? ------------- TTC 6 years IVF it is IVF/ICSI round one 10 eggs, 8 mature, 3 fertilised BFN IVF/ICSI #2 = 22 eggs! 20 mature, 15 fertilised, 1 fresh transfer and 2 frosties BFN 2 Frosties still in freezer thank god |
Posted By: _H_
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:35am
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Booboo- i dont go to church but i do believe in god. I believe that everything happens for a reason, even if we cant see why at the time everything is part of a bigger plan. ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: mummy_becks
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:37am
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I sooooo agree ------------- I was a puree feeder, forward facing, cot sleeping, pram pushing kind of Mum... and my kids survived! |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:41am
From someone that has lost a close friend, and been through other life "experiences" one thing I have learned,is that sometimes there just is no answer, and trying to understand why bad things happen to good people, will never give you an answer thats good enough....no answer will bring your friend back. -------------
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Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:58am
See that just isn't a good enough reason for me. So there is a plan that involves people that do horrible things being able to live lovely lives but wonderful amazing people who do nothing but good get theirs taken away..... I can't see how you can accept or make sense of that. JMO. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 11:04am
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I like this thread. I hope it doesn't get heated, because it's nice to learn about other people's beliefs and opinions like this
Booboo - that's an age-old question, isn't it. I think it's something that everyone who's ever lost someone close to them struggles with, no matter what they believe. My own answer isn't complete, but there are two main thoughts that come to mind. First - God's given us free will. That means people are going to make dumb choices, and God isn't going to step in to stop them. I don't know how your friend died, so this might not be relevant at all, but it comes into play with things like drink drivers. God's let them make a dumb-ass decision that's had horrific consequences, and to have done anything different would have meant removing their free will. Secondly, God doesn't think like we do. We see the end of our lives on earth as a tragedy (or at least I do... if something was to happen to DH or Jacob I would be devastated). As I understand it, for the people who believe in him, God just sees it as the end of one thing and the beginning of the next. But that's just how I see it, and like I said, my answer isn't complete. I'm not actually sure what would happen if (God no) something happened to Jacob, since he's too little to believe anything. But I can tell you I'd want to die myself if anything did, so I understand where you're coming from. OK... time to think happy thoughts Wee Jakey's going to be fine... I hate those kind of thoughts!!!-------------
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 11:05am
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I can't accept it or make sense of it either, I don't understand why my friend died so soon after having her baby, or why my other friend was killed trying to help someone and is killer still lives....so I just don't even try to make sense of it anymore -------------
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Posted By: millymollymandy
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 1:43pm
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Wow - its interesting to learn about other peoples views. I can understand that if someone found that reilgion helped them lead a better and happier life that they would want to tell others about it. A bit like when you get fit and healthy amd want everyone to discover that secret to life. I get a bit bugged by strangers wanting to do this though. (Why do JW's like to send pretty teenage girls in short skirts around these days?)
Am confirmed C of E, but did it so I could bunk off church at boarding school, if you were confirmed you could go to unsupervised church - in practice you stayed in bed. I hate the way I mocked the church like that. I would hate my kids to do something like this! I have no problem with relgious people, mostly they are people who try to make themselves better people and that's a good thing in my book. I enjoy talking theology, but don't know much about it. My neighbour's studying to be a deacon and am helping with her writing and enjoying the academic challenge and learning about the hsitorical side of the bible. I believe in being good to people, looking after others, setting examples, doing your bit for charity etc, I just don't beleive these things need to be done through a church or organised religion, but understand that soem people prefer that approach. I once found out that a male colleague who was a chirstain fundamentalist was writing a blog about work judging us women according to is views. Basically saying that single women (like me at the time) were simply repressed mothers who were wasting our time working etc etc. It was horrible and female friends who are religous agree that relgion can be a shelter for a lot of chauvanistic views. I told this guy that I was hurt by his comments as I had at the time recently had a broken engagement and that he should get to know people before making such cruel allegations. I don't consider his behaviour very chirstain as I undestand that a JC was supposed about love and tolerance. This side of reilgion scares me. Lastly I have a vision of a "heaven", that's like a library for souls. Souls get taken out for while and then come back to the library, get tidied up and loving put away on a shelf all ready to be taken out again. A bit trippy and new age, but that's how I think of my loved ones. |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 2:13pm
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In my Heaven, there are Georgie Pies on every corner and Friends plays all the time :-D -------------
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Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 2:37pm
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I love the way at 4 pages, no arguments! Well done!!
Just my view on some questions that were raised after my last post "Talking to God" - might seem weird to some people, but so is talking to yourself, talking yourself up or into doing something, having an internal monologue, gut feelngs, instinct etc. All these things that most people do is what *I* and possibly other Christians might class as "Talking to God" Or "unloading on God" and him "talking to me" is the peace I feel after I have unloaded, or s choice that seems more clear. Faith - to me, faith isn't just about God. Well, it is TO me, but it dosen't have to be. I have this little saying I like "Faith is about closing your eyes and opening your heart". A bit like being sure or hoping that *x* will happen, come into fruition, work out etc etc. Thats faith. Faith in yourself, faith in your children, your family, your husband etc etc. Or maybe you might call it beleiving in yourself. It's faith! For me, I'll ask God to help me with this or that and have faith he will do what is right for me. You, onthe other hand will rely on yourself and have faith you can do the right thing. I'm not really expaining it very well, am I? But do you sort of get what I mean? And Becs, Anytime! ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: fattartsrock
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 2:40pm
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Hey Clover, I know requiem mass seems so impersonal, but to a Catholic, its the ultimate - hence the name "Requiem Mass". I plan on having a bit of a casual do inthe parish centre before my RM so my friends and fam can have my music and talk and stiff, then the formal part in the church...in about 100 years, though! ------------- The Honest Un PC Parent of 2, usually stuck in the naughty corner! :P |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 2:59pm
this is something i wonder about with my kids too. I dont know what i believe - i dont know if there is a heaven or if my mums spirit lurks to watch over me, or she is going to be reincarnated, or if she is in a pool of souls waiting to pick a new parent. frankly dying scares the bejeezers out of me and sometimes i wish that i had something i could believe in. i dont care if my kids sing songs about god, or mythical beasts. i dont care if they teach the bible in school either. i dont care if the person i am having a drink with believes in god and i certainly wouldnt stop liking fats because of her beliefs. i think religion scares people though cause it worries them and it makes them think about life after life and what will become of them and because to some it is so black and white and they cant see or dont want to see any shades of grey or colour. i think it scares people who dont have a strong faith or belief because they dont understand it, and fear of the unknown is a biggie and can make people do some strange things. i imagine too that weak minded people might be scared they could be brainwashed and lump all religion into the same boat - wether it be mainstream or not. religious wars and the atrocities committed in the name of religion certainly havent helped the cause any either. So really there is a lot to be afraid of potentially in regards to religion and i can see how some poor people could be scared about the whole thing. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 3:29pm
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oh and i have been wanting to say for ages how much in awe and envious i am of the parents of Aria MacDonald for the faith they have. i have watched their journey and felt my heart break but have been astounded at how their faith has helped them and have wondered what it must feel like to believe as much as they seem to.
but i do get very annoyed with people who want to pray to god to get them through a cold or some trivial day to day matter... i cant help but think that if he existed he would have bigger things on his plate! ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: clover
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 3:43pm
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I think 100 years sounds like a good plan fattarts!
Bizzy, I totally agree with everything you wrote (not often that happens )------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: HoneybunsMa
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 4:55pm
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This has been interesting although I didn't read everything word for word.
I am agnostic I believe that there is something/someone watching us who I don't know why I don't know but they are there guiding us through life. I believe that my grandmother (mum's mum) guides me through ups and downs and know that DP has seen her watching while I sleep. I also believe that when my car broke down with just DD and I no reception on a backroad down to Wanganui that my ancestors watched over me and made sure we were safe. I was in the homelands of my family. But thats the Maori side coming out. DP is Christian, well his family is he is the son of a Pastor his dad is very involved with church and has been the whole of DP's life now he has his own over in Brisbane. DP still believes but isn't at the place in his life where he wants to go back to church as we have both experienced his family being very judgemental of our life and that we aren't living it the way it should be lived by their standards. His dad doesn't agree with his job because he works with alcohol nevermind the face that DP doesn't drink all that often. He doesn't take into fact that DP LOVES his job, excells at it even. We are looked down on because we have DD and are not married. It is not taken into consideration that DP and I have been together 9.5 years, we both worked full time jobs and had a place we were renting and were happy before we had a baby. I don't mind people having religion I am happy for people who do and have peace with themselves. I don't like hearing stories of this persons cleft palate got healed through prayer. Or this person's arm got fixed etc. That doesn't wash with me and MIL used to tell me things like that. I do appreciate that DP's family have had me and my family in their prayers however like when my parents split up, just the fact that they cared and thought of me meant something. Even if I don't pray myself. If I do talk to someone then I normally talk to my grandma. Oh and when you get asked everytime you see someone the same thing "when are you coming to church" sometimes I feel like the answer is "when you stop asking me". Also these people are the very same that judge us for having DD, who as far as I am concerned is the condensed version of our love. We have so much love for her and eachother because of her. Just because you have a piece of paper saying you are married doesn't mean a thing to me. We have the marriage/relationship with out the paper. As for would I come to your house for drinks, if I knew you YES what would you like me to bring? I can make a mean bacon and egg pie ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Posted By: HoneybunsMa
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 4:59pm
Booboo I believe it happens for a reason, we may never know the reason but it happens. I don't know how your friend died but perhaps if it was read in the paper, or known through a local town or what have you that someone you don't know was affected by the instance and taken a change of their life. Maybe it made a mum take responsibility just a bit more when they put their kids in the car, perhaps it brought two people who were fighting over something silly back together. Just because we may never know the reason doesn't mean it isn't there. Sorry my posts are a bit long and whaffly lol ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 7:16pm
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I think the whole 'bad things happen to good people' along with the immense amount if injustice in the world is what made me question a god.
I just cannot understand why, If god is omniscient and omnipotent he/she chooses not to intervene and stop certain things (disasters such as earthquakes, famines, pestilence and the many small incidents e.g. stopping a toddler wondering into the road - or indeed why he/she chooses to make those things happen in the first place) He/she therefore either chooses not to intervene for good, or cannot intervene ------------- |
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 7:46pm
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Without wanting to offend/annoy or preach to anyone, Christianity explains that bad stuff happens in this world because of sin - which God himself did not want but we as humans chose to do and still do. Before sin the world was perfect.
The best part of this though is that if we choose to believe in God and become Christians we can be assured that when we die (for whatever reason) that we will go to heaven where there will be no more suffering, pain or tears.....ever. As for why God allows bad stuff to happen to good people is an answer only God himself knows but I certainly know that I would far rather face this life and this world safe in the knowledge that God cares and gives strength in difficult times. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 7:51pm
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Honeybuns, I'm sold on the bacon and egg pie *nom nom*
I don't like the amount of judgement that goes on in some churches as well. I guess it's always going to be a part of life since we are all human, and there will always be some "christians" and "non-christians" that are judgemental. Heck, I am sometimes although I really try not to be. I think I do okay most of the time.
This discussion is so interesting, I love reading about everyone's views. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |
Posted By: my4beauties
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 7:54pm
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All humans are sinners, good or bad. God doesn't allow bad things to happen to good people, Satan does. He's the reason why Adam sinned and broke the perfect mould. Adam was a perfect human being and lived in a perfect world. He sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and bad in which God said that was the only tree in the garden he wasn't allowed to eat from, and was banished from the Garden of Eden and all his offspring would be born imperfect. Satan thought he could rule the earth and humans and this is his way of doing it. ------------- My babies: R (9),G (7), J (5) http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 7:57pm
Ok - but i would say: a) if god created everything he created sin e.g. when he made adam and eve he already knew that they were 'imperfect' (he is omniscient) as he already knew about the whole serpent, apple thing that was going to happen so b) why did he do this knowing that humans would be imperfect and sin, and then punish other (innocent?) people thousands of years later for this sin. Why did he make humans sinful and then punish us for the way he made us? (am i making sense?) sorry - seem to be going off onto a bit of a theological debate here but these are things are just cant get straight in my head and it is interesting to hear other people's views ------------- |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:06pm
sorry ,don't mean to pick at what you are saying, but that is what bothers me, does that mean that only christians go to heaven ? and people who are good people,but aren't christian, go elsewhere? and for me, no matter how people justify the reasons for people dying etc it will never be good enough, not for me at any rate. -------------
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Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:28pm
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The Kelly - If you believe what the bible teaches then yes, only Christians who believe and trust in Jesus as their Saviour go to heaven.
And don't worry, I don't feel picked at! I am only stating what I read in the bible! "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" John 3 v16-18 Sorry for getting all heavy and quoting large chunks of the bible! Personally I believe the bible and what it says and have had the personal experience of being saved from not knowing or wanting to know God but I know for others that the bible is not something they believe to be true so therefore the above quote will either offend them or just not interest them!! SusieC - the same questions get to me sometimes too - i.e. if God knew that we would sin then why did he let it happen. Sometimes I am content to believe that the reason is down to the fact that God also gave us free choice and will but also that God in his omniscience had a far greater plan (i.e. Jesus). At other times the questions still get to me and my mind can't handle it or work it out!!! Happy to pull back at this point if I am saying too much!! ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: MrsMojo
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 8:30pm
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Does evil exist? The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are then God is evil." The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth. Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?" "Of course", replied the professor. The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?" "What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody and every object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have too little heat. The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?" The professor responded, "Of course it does". The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present." Finally the young man asked the professor. "Sir, does evil exist?" Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. "These manifestations are nothing else but evil." To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love, that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light." The professor sat down. -------------
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Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 9:34pm
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The Kelly- just wanted to add that I have read back over this thread and have seen your posts about your dear friend who died - I am really sorry to hear that and hope that my comments above don't cause any more hurt than what you already feel. To be honest, I can only begin to understand how it must feel to lose a close friend as I have only ever experienced elderly family deaths which somehow although very sad, still feel like how the normal course of life is IYKWIM. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Rachael21
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 9:37pm
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I believe in no god or anything higher for the simple reason it does not make sense to me. Maybe I'm too stupid to understand the theory but it honestly seems too far fetched. I think when we die, we die that is the end and quite frankly the though of living an eternal life with god makes me want to vomit. No offense but that just isn't cup of tea. If god was real I would think he was an asshole, if we were all his children wouldn't he hate the thought of us going to hell eternally? And why did he love jesus so much more than anyone else? I honestly haven't looked that far into the bible to understand, it lost me when everyone lived for 700 years and women had to suffer the pain of childbirth for Eve eating the apple.
I want to teach my children to be able to justify their actions to themselves and have morals based on human rights. Not some threat of going to hell. The reason I'm weary of christian education is I do not want my children thinking they (or me) will go to hell before they are old enough to understand what they are learning and can be objective. I would have no problem if they decided to choose a religion later on down the track but would encourage them to explore the theories behind a few before making that decision. But with that aside I could not care less what other people believe and I actually don't really discuss it that much with my friends. If I meet someone cool and then find out they are into religion I mentally think back about all the inappropriate jokes I've made (kidding). Nah it honestly doesn't bother me, for example I think you are pretty cool Annie and I was well aware of your stance on religion. I fully respect anyone that has made a decision and feel strongly about it. |
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 9:46pm
So what is the point in life then? (am not being nasty here, just wondering what people think!) Re. morals based on human rights....if you take that back a step further then where have those morals come from, if you know what I mean. To me, without God then I am not sure where we can base or form our morals from. Personally I don't have my morals as a result of feeling like hell is a threat and therefore I must avoid it by having certain morals. My morals are based on what I have read in the bible or been taught by those who know a whole lot more about the bible than I do!! ETA: And yes, God does hate the thought of us going to hell which is why he has given us a way out of that. ------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:01pm
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Hmm - the whole morals from the bible theory is flawed though. The bible is full of examples of bad morals e.g. stoning of adulterers, homosexuals and people who work on the Sabbath. God advising Abraham to sacrifice his son and then saying "only testing" at the last second (how terrifying for the child), God advising somebody (can't remember who) to offer up his daughters for rape in place of two priests. Why do the majority of people (including Christians) believe those above examples are bad now? You can't cherry pick the good points out of the bible and ignore the bad . . .
Oh - and as to the point of life . .. why does there have to be one? Do animals go to heaven? if not what is the point of their lives? and just to remind all i am not aiming to offend anyone ------------- |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:05pm
I feel like rachandjack to, that you die and that is that, nothing happens, no afterlife, no ghosts, no anything you are just no more. So what's the point? my point is that I am living my life to the fullest without following rules that may get me into an afterlife. I make the most of what I have because I don't believe I will ever get more, I don't believe I will be rewarded for living a good life, I live a good life because it's what I morally feel is right to do. My morals come from being emotive. I understand that behaving in a certain away effects other people in a certain way and I understand that I wouldn't want to feel that way so I try not to make others feel that way through my actions. I don't need a bible to tell me to do that, it's pretty easy to behave responsibly as long as you have empathy. I actaully do agree with a lot in the bible in terms of the moral teachings but I think that people who do believe in god need to understand that being atheist doesn't mean we don't share the same morals it just means we don't share your idea of a higher power. |
Posted By: catisla
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:10pm
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nicely put two boys - far more eloquently than i could manage ------------- |
Posted By: Rainbow
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:25pm
Absoultely two_boys, I totally do accept/understand and very clearly see that people who don't believe in God can have excellent morals - and in some cases "better" morals than those who do have a faith! I really like what you said about morals coming from being emotive/empathetic. In terms of living life without following rules to get into an afterlife - that is not why I am living my life as I have chosen to do. I live my life in the way I do because I personally believe in God and what He has taught us. Christianity isn't about being good enough - far from it - the only reason I believe we are able to enter heaven is because God has the grace to forgive us despite our failings and bad points (of which I have many!) and not because we deserve heaven based on how good our life was. I am going to say very little else cos I don't want to dominate or seem like I am pushing my opinion. I am really interested in the discussions!------------- http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:31pm
No worries chick, you didn't offend me -------------
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Posted By: LittleBug
Date Posted: 26 October 2010 at 10:43pm
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With regards to a lot of the "bad stuff" that happened to people in the Bible, it tends to be in the old testament when God allowed judgement for sin to occur (Noah's flood, etc). In the new testament you don't see the same kind of judgement on mankind by God because Jesus paid for their penalties. That was my understanding of it anyway. Not sure if that made much sense, I'm exhausted!
Agree with rainbow, Christianity is about having a personal relationship with God, not about being "good enough" to get into heaven. ------------- Chloe (4 years) and Oliver (3 years). |