Couple aborts twin boys for girl
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Topic: Couple aborts twin boys for girl
Posted By: kellie
Subject: Couple aborts twin boys for girl
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 12:00pm
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/give-us-a-girl-plea-couple/story-e6frf7kx-1225983885268 - Link ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Nothing
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 2:17pm
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how horrible (for the twins), if it is so vital to her psycolgical health for her to have a girl, then whats going to happen if it doenst happen? ------------- 
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Posted By: myfullhouse
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 2:55pm
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And is having a girl really going to solve the problem? Will she not still grieve the daughter she lost? ------------- Lindsey 
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 5:03pm
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Replacement babies are not the way to go. Its very very sad that she lost a daughter but i think she should seek serious counselling not campaign for the right to sex-select.
The only sensible thing about this is that they realise they can't just have unlimited amount of children until they have a girl. Controversial point of view: if the twins were born i wonder if she would have taken her frustration at their sex out on them - are they better off for not being born? |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 6:29pm
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I'm surprised they would be allowed to do ivf again. IVF is a serious process and to then go and abort after falling pregnant using IVF is terrible. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 7:04pm
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Oh Bowie on your last point - very good point.
Kind of horrible they decided to go through with ivf though knowing chances of having boys. I wonder if they always had the intention of aborting if they turned out to be boys. ETA for spelling. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 8:48pm
SHOCKING  that they could kill two babies because they didn't meet their need for a girl. Those poor babies not given a chance at life . Why couldn't they adpot them out?
I agree with above comments she needs serious HELP, not a replacement girl for the one that died. I feel sorry for the 3 boys their mother and father are consumed with this drive to have a girl. I wonder when the boys are older if they will think 'why have you done this aren't we good enough'? My mother in law is obessed with having a girl grandchild that's it's very concerning she didn't have a girl and has turned her focus to her kids tpo produce girl grandkids. I have made it Extremely clear that I have a desire for children and not for a particular sex and she has to deal with it if we have 5 boys! I just don't understand this desire?  -------------  
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Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 08 January 2011 at 9:57pm
That's such a shame. I have five daughters but I wouldn't have even thought about aborting daughter #5 to try for another boy! No way!  -------------  |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 6:26am
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That's disgusting, they shouldn't be allowed to have IVF again. I honestly don't know how they could look at the three sons they have and feel ok about aborting two perfectly healthy sons just cos they were boys, sick. ------------- 
 
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 7:59am
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I can't believe they don't see they haven't just lost one child, but three. They lost two sons because of this. Even worse, clearly to know what sex the boys were she would have been at least half way through pregnancy before aborting. What insane doctor would sign off on abortion knowing it was a case of gender selection. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 8:58am
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They probably signed it off under b/s pyschological reasons, quite a lot of doctors have no regard for unborn babies whatsoever and don't even see them as being a life. -------------
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 9:13am
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Yeh that is true and so very sad. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 9:19am
Oooh. That's so sad. Those poor little boys who would have been, got rid of just because they wanted a girl...
I know what you mean there. When we were struggling TTC, me and a friend (who's also struggled to conceive) knew someone who had twins aborted. Even though I knew the lady was in no space to have more babies. I couldn't help being furious at the unfairness that gave her babies she didn't want (and got rid of) and didn't give me any. My friend, on the other hand, said she totally understood how I felt, and kind of felt the same, but at the same time wondered that if the babies had have been born it would have been worse for them. I hadn't thought of it that way, but could see her point. (It still makes me a little mad, though, that this person talks about having 'lost' her twins, as if it was something tragic out of her control )-------------   
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bowie wrote:Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 10:02am
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I think it is absolutely disgusting and unethical. They should not be allowed more IVF, they probally will be though if they are paying privately.
What a slap in the face to those who have genuine fertitily problems and need IVF also. These people definitely need help, not more children. -------------
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Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 11:22am
Totally agree with this! Although I'd hope they found out the gender using amnio or something early on? If they were 20-odd weeks thats even worse!! I feel for the 3 poor boys they already have, why don't they focus on loving and caring for them? Even if they DO have a daughter, what an awful, unfair load to place on her shoulders - that she is essentially responsible for her mothers mental health. She'd probably be forever compared negatively to the daughter who passed away. ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 2:03pm
my MIL said "oh thats a shame" when we told her my 2nd child was a boy too! all she ever kept on about was having a girl grandchild and now she has one shes certainly not spoilt like the MIL said she would! I havent read the article yet as i am on dial up and it is taking ages to load... but half the point of having children is that is is pot luck what sex you get! it sounds very like China where girls are aborted regularly... (or used to be - someone correct me if i am off the mark!) |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 2:19pm
Yeh was thinking that to and what if! after thinking all they needed was a daughter to make them feel better, it didn't make any difference to their loss. They have already admitted that they are not coping physiologically. Its not like their pet cat died and they can just go out and get another that looks just like it. It still doesn't replace the original - if that makes any sense. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 3:21pm
 I never thought of how far along she would have to be to find out the sex - not that it makes it any better but i hope she found out via amino rather then at a 2nd tri scan.
My grandma has a thing for little girl babies and is openly disappointed that her first great-grandchild will be a boy. I think thats flipping weird (shouldnt i be getting praised for producing a male heir or something??) but relieved because she's a total dragon and if i had a girl she'd probably move in to dote on her. In India it is illegal to reveal the sex at scans to prevent this kind of thing occuring. |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 5:08pm
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Oh go India. That's a good idea really. I found out over impatience, but would totally understand if we couldn't because of things like this. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 5:15pm
| i think it very sad that they aborted IVF babies (or any baby for that matter purely because of their sex and later on in a pregnancy) and i cant help but wonder how terrible the people who helped them achieve thier IVF pregnancy must feel knowing the outcome. I cant help but wonder too how a doctor could justify the abortion on those grounds either... |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 6:22pm
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Good point Bizzy. I know the doctors and nurses from FA where we went all work just so hard and love the news of BFPs and they have a big wall with photos of babies that they helped make possible. I think this sort of thing can give IVF a bad name to. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: busymum
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 10:47pm
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IVF babies get a lot of monitoring so I imagine they would have checked at 12 weeks or something. Certainly by 16 they should have been able to tell. ------------- |
Posted By: UpsyDaisy
Date Posted: 09 January 2011 at 11:19pm
Totally agree so awful for the kids she already has and also an unfair burden should she have a girl. I just don't think people should be able to choose the sex . I can imagine it being more of a grey area when there is some medical reason (eg genetic disorder like hemophilia women carry it but males have the disease) anyways thats bit off the topic. In this case I think she is mentally unwell and can't understand how she would be allowed to have any further IVF either surely the doctor should refuse and recommend she seek treatment? |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 1:51pm
The only scan that clinics usually do is 8 weeks which is too early and also the 12 week which is common, but wouldn't show the sex yet either. So unless they were having them very regularly due to other issues, it would be in second trimester easily. I remember being told that we still wouldn't be able to find out until the standard 20 week scan and I think sometimes you may be able to see at 18 weeks if a scan was booked then. Either way, its terrible eh! ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 7:05pm
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I imagine that because these people were so desperate for a girl, they would have found out at the earliest possible time... I know with FA you can pay for scans that aren't scheduled with the standard monitoring. So hopefully it wasn't a late term abortion - but that doesn't make these people's obvious mental health issues any less -------------
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Posted By: LJsmum
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 7:15pm
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Dh and i have been discussing this and he can't believe that they could do this !
I wonder if their wider family know??? or friends? -------------
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 8:26pm
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Well I hope it was at early stage to Hopes - not that it makes any difference really like you say and their mental health. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: cuppatea
Date Posted: 10 January 2011 at 8:57pm
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I don't think it really matter how far along they were, the outcome is the same, two little boys will never get the chance at life. -------------
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 11 January 2011 at 8:21am
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Yip it was still life no matter what stage ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:16am
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I am thankfull that I live in a country where both IVF and ABORTION are legal and safe, and where women are able to make choices for themselves and their families.
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Posted By: pekay
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:21am
| Truly disgusting, she doesn't deserve another shot at a girl nor any other babies in my opinion! |
Posted By: kelzie_rose
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 9:51pm
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As someone who has been on the TTC journey for almost three years and have had two miscarriages, this makes me so utterly depressed. First off, I think that surely with IVF, you surely get some kind of counseling or talking to, as it seems to be a very very emotional and intense time. And surely, someone must have picked something up, talking to her about this.
Also, surely IVF should be for those who are having problems conceiving, and she has had three boys, conceived naturally. The husband then goes on to say: "After what we have been through we are due for a bit of luck." Ok, where's my luck? I'm due some luck! They have three healthy boys. And... There are people - like my husband and I, and numerous other couples - that would have given those boys a loving home. I do feel bad that they have lost their daughter, but this has three times now, made me so angry and depressed that I've cried. -------------  Started TTC Apr 2008 With PCOS and a bicornuate uterus Our angel babies Jan 2010 <3 Oct 2010 <3 Apr 2011 <3 |
Posted By: Delli
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 10:52pm
I'm glad to live in a country where both IVF and abortion are available too. But I can't comprehend how and why the couple would have gone through IVF only to abort based on gender though. That sucks. It's a totally different matter to falling pregnant accidentally and not being able to keep the baby. They fell pregnant on PURPOSE with HELP and KNEW there would be a 50% chance they would have to abort It just seems so ....... wrong.
What's next, getting a full genetic profile of your unborn child done and aborting if it was not going to have blue eyes? If they are granted the right to select the sex of their next baby (though I know they can do it in other countries), it just seems to me that we are getting closer and closer to a world like that in the movie Gattaca. And that's a bit scary to me. Sorry if this post doesn't make much sense - too late at night for me to be posting really.  ------------- http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 12 January 2011 at 11:08pm
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i think that it is sad in many ways... but i also take what the media report with a grain of salt. There are probably some parts of that story that is true but i know also that there would be omissions and half truths too. as outsiders we will never know the whole truth and frankly its probably not even any of our business either. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker"> 
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Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 12:42am
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Delli, your post makes sense, AND even better, its on topic.
Do we want people selecting the gender of their embryo's before implantation? the article is not about a women having aborted healthy fetuses because they were not the gender she wanted - this happens the world over, whether conceived by IVF or naturally. you can undertake CVS from 10 weeks onward. (there is a blood test that puports to reveal gender from 6 weeks but it has not been scientifically tested so one would hope that method was not employed.) you can legally terminate up to 20 weeks in NZ and Australia - for reasons of maternal mental health. If this women was allowed to use PGD technologies available in other countries she could have chosen the gender of her embryo's and would not have aborted them. Terminating a pregnancy does not make you an unfit mother to your other children (exisitng or future). although you may not think this is a genuine comment - hugs to those on their TTC journey, i appreciate this will not be an easy topic for you. i just value healthy debate of issues surrounding our rights as women to choose our own destiny. -------------
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:10am
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I'm not anti termination at all - if she had her three boys and then accidentally concieved twins and felt unable to care for 5 children and had a termination i wouldnt be writing this.
But to have IVF and then abort healthy babies bases on their gender AND say they'll be going back for another attempt??! Thats messed up. A lot of my horror is admittedly based on the assumption she would have had to be well into the second trimester to find out the babies sex. But thats assumption. As for gender selection: Yup, for sure one step away from gattica and that was a creepy film. I'm not sure i am even ok with gender selection even when its for legitimate genetic problems like haemophilia. To me its messing around with nature way too much. And big, big, big hugs for Kelzie_rose. |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:42am
Couldn't have put it better myself. That is exactly why I am horrified by this. I'm not anti termination in circumstances and its not my business, but I have been through IVF and for them to do IVF and then terminate IS disgraceful. I'm actually pissed at the clinic that did it. I was always under the impression Aussie was as strict with these things as NZ. And like someone else in here said, there is counseling done before IVF is started and the psychologist wouldn't let someone do it with the kind of issues this couple has. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:44am
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Kelzie I hope you get the little miracle you deserve soon hun and the comment made by the husband in the article pisses me off to.
Hopefully like bowie said not all things in that article are true. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: kelzie_rose
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:57am
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Thanks girls, it's not just me though, there are quite a few of us here (esp in the TTC #1 and under 30yrs old and Charting - TTC after recent MC threads) that are hurting just as bad as I am. ------------- Started TTC Apr 2008 With PCOS and a bicornuate uterus Our angel babies Jan 2010 <3 Oct 2010 <3 Apr 2011 <3 |
Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 5:56pm
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Unless you have been paraphrased in the media personally, you may not fully understand the liberties they take. -------------
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 10:42pm
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I don't understand your point, exactly. If you're implying (my assumption here) that you have had bad experiences with the media and your situation was made out to be something different then i'm sorry you had to go through that - however in this case i'm not sure what details the media might have excluded that would make this any better or more resonable.
Like i said, i am not against termination; i had one myself as a teenager. As i said above if she'd accidentally concieved twins and terminated it wouldnt raise an eyebrow for me. Actually, even if she'd gone through IVF only for her situation to change and then decided to terminate i wouldnt judge. If her sole aim was to replace a lost daughter (which IMO isnt healthy and counselling should have been her first call, not replacement babies) she had a variety of options - IVF in a country where gender selection is allowed (i believe in America this is an option?) or adopted, or fostered. The article doesnt state who paid and i am being a bit personal here, but a very close friend has just gotten a BFN from her final funded round of IVF and as they can't scrape up the money to pay for their own a child seems unlikely for them. If they concieved twins (only to abort based on gender) through public funded IVF....well, i can't help but think that money and treatment should have gone to someone like my friend - or any of the TTC ladies here. |
Posted By: 5th...and final??
Date Posted: 13 January 2011 at 11:01pm
 I have been quoted in the media in my line of work many times. Very rarely does the quote actually word for word, say what I said.
So i doubt that father said what they say he did, even if it is in "quote marks". The article doesn't say they want a replacement daughter, it says they want another daughter. Agreed, who pays for IVF is another contentious issue. -------------
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Posted By: peanut butter
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 7:45am
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I would be suprised if they get permission to choose the sex. I am suprised they can in the US (well not really suprised). you cant have people choosing sex of their child. It would screw the world up.
I would also say that she has a "few issues" to sort out. I know before I TTC No 3 part of me was wanting a girl. I figured that wasnt enough of a reason to try for No3. It was only when I realised it was a 3rd child that I wanted that we decided to TTC. I would love a girl (for the experience and variety) but if a 3rd boy comes along thats great too. Oh and busymum...I have been out of touch,...CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!! No 5! Wow...you will be busy! |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 8:30am
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bowie so you are against her aborting purely because of the sex issue? thats a bit double standard...its her choice but only if its for a reason you agree with?
there are so many facts we arent made aware of and we have seen it before on here where a story in the media has affected someone personally and the information they know as fact is simply not the same as reported by the media. I am starting to feel sorry for the couple, i am sure they would be horrified if they knew they were being judged based on a single newpaper article full of misinformation and half truths. There are laws and rules in place that seem to have been ignored and this alone makes me suspicious of the story. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 8:45am
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Yeah, i guess i do sound a bit like that don't I? Good call.
So, to be fair, no, not against her aborting because of the sex. I'm not against abortions in any situation though some i find hard to fathom (ie. termination as birth control) but i wouldnt want the right to chose removed from us. I can't quite get my head around the 'its a boy - abort' mentalitly that is portrayed (key word; portrayed) and it makes me very sad. However like i said way back on page one - what would their lives have been like if she'd been refused? Would they have been neglected/felt unloved for their gender? We can't say that if she'd been forced to carry to term if they would have ended up in a terrible situation. But then again they might not have. Also a thought that came to mind a while back - if she is having the psychological problems that the article makes her out to be having would she have found other methods of termination that are not medical or safe but we all hear about and can be turned to in desperation? Then we would have the article "woman denied abortion and found dead after trying herself" and i would be sitting here writing a pro-choice debate instead. Without all the assumption etc at the end of the day it is for me just really sad that little lives are ended due to sex, sadder that IVF time and assistance was 'wasted' on it (hoping that it wasnt public funded IVF!) and a reminder that designer babies are on the horizon. |
Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 8:48am
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this is interesting:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/parents-choose-custom-babies/story-fn6ck45n-1225984170070 - link has more information about the same couple as well which makes it sound like they found out the sex earlier. ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 8:52am
thats what makes me sad too... ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: Bizzy
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 9:18am
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looks like they are going to to to thailand instead
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/mum-of-three-boys-resorts-to-thai-ivf-to-have-girl/story-e6frf7l6-1225889584928 - link ------------- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/weight-loss-ticker">
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 5:57pm
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I feel sorry for them, how messed up must you be to do that.... so, so sad!
I wonder what will happen when they get their little girl and it doesnt fix things... Such a sad thing for all involved! -------------   
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 7:40pm
We found out our baby was a girl at the 16 week scan, and 2 more scan since have shown it to be correct. We had an emergency scan cos the MW couldn't hear babies heartbeat at my appointment and by the time we got to the scan I didn't care what my baby was,so long as it was ok ....so its possible they could have found out at 16 weeks, but more likely at 18 ------------- 
http://lilypie.com"> 
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 7:44pm
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Oh that's cool Kelly. May be some sonographers just say 18 weeks then cause ours was a bit grouchy when we asked how soon we could find out at the 12 week one. She just snapped 18 weeks at us.
We got heaps of scans to. We had them about monthly so was no mistaking it was a girl by full term. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 14 January 2011 at 7:56pm
I think we were just lucky to get like, THE most enthusiastic sonographer ever,seriously, the whole time he was like "and this is her spine, and this is her leg ,,,,isn't that incredible? and this is her ...."
I don't really have much to add to the original discussion except the whole thing saddens me and makes me sad for all those concerned and all those affected by reading it And big hugs to you Kelzie Rose....and all the other brave women treading wearily but still with hope along this difficult TTC journey -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: mummyofprinces
Date Posted: 15 January 2011 at 8:01am
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dont forget you can find out the gender by amnio which is performed much earlier.... -------------
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Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 15 January 2011 at 8:11am
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and CVS which can be done at about 10-11 weeks... I would assume they used one of these methods to determine sex rather than US which is less reliable. ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: Stephi
Date Posted: 15 January 2011 at 1:10pm
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So good to see New Zealand women have their heads screwed on the right way!
I am on another forum (american) and the MAJORITY of them were like "good on her, I would probably have done the same thing". This makes me sick to my stomach. I am against abortion (apart from medical reasons), and this just makes me feel justified in my views on it. How the hell could a person abort their two sons, just to have a girl? If they wanted a girl SO badly, they should have gone to america (like they are wanting to do now, if they dont win their case) and done the gender selection from the beginning. These people knew the risks (50/50) of having boys, and for some stupid reason, they chose that option instead of the one that would guarantee them a girl from the word go. IMO this woman needs help, and shouldnt be able to partake in IVF until shes had the help she needs. ------------- 
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Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 12:56pm
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wow Stephi, that surprises me, I always got the impression that Americans were the majority, opposed to abortions? -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 11:11pm
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Awww Kelly its so the opposite. Have seen and heard things that go in America that are astounding. Its almost common practice for women to abort at nine months there or doctors just leave the baby to starve to death if the parents don't want them. Its pretty horrific. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 21 January 2011 at 11:21pm
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wow really ??I so did not know that! I always thought they were really opposed....mind you thats just from reading Yahoo comments ,man thats shocking , abortions at 9months? :-S -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 10:51am
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Yeh the other forum in the news one with that dr being charged for murder. In that State it is illegal, but what he did to those babies is perfectly legal in a lot of American States. ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: TheKelly
Date Posted: 22 January 2011 at 10:25pm
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Murder is legal in some states there...thats disgusting !
God I hope he gets charged and sentenced to life -------------
http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 23 January 2011 at 8:33am
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Yeh good way to put it. Definitely counts as murder! ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: yermasyada
Date Posted: 24 January 2011 at 12:55pm
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Is anyone else curious as to what this couple would do if they found out they were having a baby girl......... but that she was going to be disabled?
Part of me would like to think the best, and that they'd love and care for her like the daughter they are so obviously are desperate for.... BUT a bigger part of me thinks they'd abort that child too as she wouldn't be the 'perfect little girl' they want
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Posted By: Kazper
Date Posted: 24 January 2011 at 1:15pm
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Oh dear Milliemoo, never thought of that. When and if they get their girl, she is certainly going to have a lot to live up to for her parents ------------- http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/545141" rel="nofollow"> |