Co-sleeping - the *real* stats?
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Topic: Co-sleeping - the *real* stats?
Posted By: T_Rex
Subject: Co-sleeping - the *real* stats?
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 1:58pm
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There is yet another article in the news today in which a coroner expresses his distress that people are still co-sleeping their parent, and highlights a case in which a 4-week-old baby died while co-sleeping.
Further details reveal that the baby was between it's parents, and that the parents had been drinking. As far as I'm aware, both of those things mean that it was a breach of the co-sleeing safely guidelines to do so in that case. However, the coronor states between 55-60 babies die every year co-sleeping. That is a LOT of babies. Surely they can't all have been cases where the parents were breaching the guidelines? I admit I do co-sleep sometimes, but I make sure I follow the safety *rules* if we do. I also plan to co-sleep with my impending new-born if it feels right for us (again within the guidelines). But, if the coroner really is right, that it's putting my baby in real danger to do so, I'd like to know about it. What I'd like to see is a comparison of co-sleeping vs non-cosleeping baby deaths, in which it compares only babies being co-slept within the *rules* with babies in equally safe (non-smoking, appropriate temperature, natural fibre bedding etc) non-cosleeping environments. Has anyone seen anything like this and could point me in the right direction? ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Replies:
Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 2:16pm
| There is a book, i think called nightime parenting by william sears that has a lot of info like that, but is american statistics if that matters. He actually thinks co-sleeping is a SIDS reducer in itself for many reasons. |
Posted By: JessDub
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 2:51pm
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Saw that case too. Hideous. The parents were drinking until 5am!
I don't know that the information you want would be readily available. IMO I would say that the guidelines are breached the majority of the times when an infant dies in a co-sleeping situation - why would there be quite clear guidelines extracted from coronial findings otherwise? It's probably safer to advise against co-sleeping than promoting it for those few people who'd 'abuse' it. ------------- 
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Posted By: kellie
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 6:25pm
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I would also be interested in the stats when co sleeping safely. I have been co sleeping with Alex as I find we get a lot more sleep.
I never thought I would co sleep with a newborn, but at the hospital one of the ward MWs suggested it after I had been awake feeding for hours, and I have continued to do so :) ------------- 
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Posted By: pudgy
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 6:39pm
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I would love to see those stts too. I don't think I have ever heard of a baby who was co- sleeping safely dying. Of all the recent cases in the media there were safety guidlines breached. Parents drinking, sleeping baby with other children and co- sleeping on fold out couches.
Ive not seen anything like that, but if you search for stats on sids in countries were co-sleeping are the norm , say Japan. You might find something.  ------------- http://lilypie.com">  http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: MamaT
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 7:19pm
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From what I've read the majority of deaths relating to co-sleeping is from breach of the guidelines. I wonder if you could get hold of the info and exclude those who weren't safely co-sleeping and then re-calculate the stats??
Otherwise look up Dr Sears as Bowie suggested, as I'm sure he's done a lot of research on it, being the cosleeping advocate he is. -------------  
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Posted By: luvmylittlies
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 8:22pm
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Having worked in a hospital I know first hand of 2 babies dying from co-sleeping from well educated, non-smoking healthy parents who seem to have done everything right. You have no idea whether for some reason those kids were always going to have a problem with SIDS or not though. Anyway, for this reason I tend to agree with the general recommendation against it but also have no problem with people who chose to do it. Those recommendations are made on statistics alone and can't really predict what will happen to you personally so I still think it's a personal choice - but those 2 cases scared the crap out of me because they really really looked like it shouldn't have happened to them. ------------- Adoring Mum to Talisin 8/9/11 and Kiara 18/01/10 |
Posted By: JadeC
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 9:16pm
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55-60 babies a year dieing from co-sleeping? In NZ, or in the world? That is a HUGE number!
Now I need to go look up the "rules", I know we have one strike against us because I am over-weight, but hopefully it's a slightly different story with a 10 month old than a newborn. And we always have him between us, so he doesn't roll out! ------------- http://pregnancy.baby-gaga.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: pudgy
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 9:51pm
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These are some safety guidelines http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/sleep-problems/sleep-safety/safe-co-sleeping-habits - Linky ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: pudgy
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 9:55pm
Thats very sad  When you say though 'dying from co-sleeping ' was it co-sleeping directly that caused the death ie smothering, or was it SIDS ? ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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thesaff wrote:Posted By: pudgy
Date Posted: 25 June 2011 at 10:15pm
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Sorry that reads more abrupt than I meant it to.
I hope ygwim ? ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 8:10am
| I too was suprised to be recommended co-sleeping by a hospital midwife when DS was newborn, they even showed us the 'safe' way to do it. Hang on pudgy i have the book here somewhere i just need to sneak in to DSs room and get it! |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 8:22am
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I was surprised to have it recommended by the birthing centre midwives too, Bowie. Although to be honest, I didn't think their recommendation was all that safe given the circumstances - I only had a single bed, bubs could easily have fallen off the side, and I was so wasted after being in labour all the night before with no sleep, I don't think it would have been safe. Not that I don't think it's possible to co-sleep safely, just that I don't think it would have been for me then.
Sorry, off topic a little... I'd be interested to see what you find, T_Rex. That does sound like a huge number! -------------   
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 8:25am
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^^ Right? I'm all wacked out from having a baby and they're like here, sleep on this narrow single bed a mile up from the ground - but don't worry we'll put some pillows down the side of baby so he doesnt roll of! No, but he might turn his head and smother in them??!
Anyway - T-Rex, (sorry pudgy i got confused who i was talking to) nightime parenting has a big bit in it about how sharing sleep is safer as your breathing keeps bubs breathing in a rythem, you nurse more, bubs doesnt drop into a deep deep sleep because of people noises etc but no real statistics that i can see. |
Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 8:27am
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We co-sleep full time with Scarlett and did it part time with Clodagh. My understanding is that done properly it is an arguably SAFER way to sleep, given that most mothers across the world do it (just not in some industrialised Western countries when we expect and demand our children gain independence as young as possible). Having said that, I also absolutely appreciate that there are situations when it is very dangerous, ie when drugs or drink have been taken, excess tiredness above and beyond normal new mummy exhaustion, and very obese parent(s). I agree you need to follow the guidelines of safe co-sleeping -------------   http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 1:08pm
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I started bringing my DS into bed with us when he was about 13 odd months old because he was sick and that way we ALL got more sleep. Not sure if that counts as co sleeping, but I must admit I am not sure if would feel as confident doing it with a newborn. I remember trying to do it at the hospital when he was just born, but quite frankly I didn't get a wink of sleep cause I was terrified of squashing him. I DO however believe that it is natural for babies to want to be near/with/on their mums, so I think it would be awesome if there was a way to do it safely.
I too think that figure seems ridiculously high.... |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 2:15pm
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I agree Emmecat! I have bed shared with all my kids, generally full time, and tbh I was quite unaware of the controversy surrounding co-sleeping when I had my oldest. However, when I had my second I did look into the safety concerns and debate around it. From what I have read, because the guidelines for SAFE bed sharing can be quite confusing for some, it is safer for health professionals to advise completely against this practice. However, my belief (from my reading) is that when done correctly it can be safer, esp when compared with sleeping baby in another room.
Research has shown that Chinese families predominantly bed share, yet have such low rates of SIDS that they don't even have a name for it. Sleep studies have also shown that mothers are very good at tending to their babies need, even whilst sleeping, and are generally very aware of their babies when sleeping. Another argument which is often used against bed sharing is it promotes dependence/ inhibits independence, however research has shown the opposite - and some studies have shown higher levels of independence at a younger age for bed sharing children. My DD2 is so freaken independent it drives me crazy - ever since she was little she wouldn't let us help her dress or eat etc... A recent study has shown that the risks aren't solely with smothering babies but also with positioning of the neck/jaw. As these structures are immature in young babies you have to be careful so as not to raise babies head so their jaw is in contact with their chest as this can result in the tongue moving back and blocking their airway (similar to the concerns around babies in capsules). For me, I feel much safer with my babies in my bed, where I can hear them breathing. I am confident that I am aware of where they are, but if I was overtired or had had anything to drink I definitely wouldn't have them in the bed. I think it's a very individual thing and definitely needs to looked at on a case by case basis... ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: luvmylittlies
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 3:08pm
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Pudgy - there was no known reason for either bubs dying. So I guess technically it was SIDS but in a co-sleeping situation. Not really sure of the distinction though.
It wasn't for us for lots of reasons but I can totally see Freckle and Bowie's points of view. I mean I would logic out that if done 'properly' then co-sleeping should actually reduce the risk of SIDS because you're right there moving around etc. It would be good T-Rex as you said to see the risk of deaths 'properly' co-sleeping versus risk of SIDS in normals. Probably too hard to investigate it that specifically though (particularly as there is no money in the result - sorry, I'm a bit of a cynic sometimes). Bottom line; it definitely needs to be an individual choice. ------------- Adoring Mum to Talisin 8/9/11 and Kiara 18/01/10 |
Posted By: JadeC
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 6:31pm
I think the distinction is huge. Would we classify SIDS deaths in cribs as dying because of being in a crib? ------------- http://pregnancy.baby-gaga.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: luvmylittlies
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 7:00pm
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Oh what I meant was that I'm not sure how they define it for their stats. I was kinda guessing that their 55-60 deaths co-sleeping a year include the SIDS ones and not just smothering etc. ------------- Adoring Mum to Talisin 8/9/11 and Kiara 18/01/10 |
Posted By: freckle
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 7:32pm
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here's the abstract from one of the articles I have... it's an older one (1999) and I'm sure there will be more recent research but if you do want this article I can email it... I'm sure I have a few others on here somewhere - I'll have a look
Babies sleeping with parents: case-control study of factors influencing the risk of the sudden infant death syndrome Peter S Blair, Peter J Fleming, Iain J Smith, Martin Ward Piatt, Jeanine Young, Pam Nadin, P J Berry, Jean Golding, and the CESDI SUDI research group Abstract Objective To investigate the risks of the sudden infant death syndrome and factors that may contribute to unsafe sleeping environments. Design Three year, population based case-control study. Parental interviews were conducted for each sudden infant death and for four controls matched for age, locality, and time of sleep. Setting Five regions in England with a total population of over 17 million people. Subjects 325 babies who died and 1300 control infants. Results In the multivariate analysis infants who shared their parents' bed and were then put back in their own cot had no increased risk (odds ratio 0.67; 95% confidence interval 0.22 to 2.00). There was an increased risk for infants who shared the bed for the whole sleep or were taken to and found in the parental bed (9.78; 4.02 to 23.83), infants who slept in a separate room from their parents (10.49; 4.26 to 25.81), and infants who shared a sofa (48.99; 5.04 to 475.60). The risk associated with being found in the parental bed was not significant for older infants (> 14 weeks) or for infants of parents who did not smoke and became non-significant after adjustment for recent maternal alcohol consumption (> 2 units), use of duvets (> 4 togs), parental tiredness (infant slept 5.4 hours for longest sleep in previous 24 hours), and overcrowded housing conditions (> 2 people per room of the house). Conclusions There are certain circumstances when bed sharing should be avoided, particularly for infants under four months old. Parents sleeping on a sofa with infants should always be avoided. There is no evidence that bed sharing is hazard ------------- mum to 3 lovely girls :D |
Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 7:33pm
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Wow, thanks for all the replies. I've had a bit of a google and come up with not much! But I'll share what I've come up with so far -
There was an article in the NZ medical journal about what freckle mentioned - that there can be risks with tilting of the babies head causing sids too, and that might be more likely to happen on a shared bed than in a flat cot, but it was more hypothetical than based on real stats. There was also a report of 45 SIDS deaths from 2005 of which something like 18 were in bed with someone else but of those, 6 died of an infection and 2 were cosleeping with siblings, which makes it 10 co-sleeping babies dying for no apparent reason. I don't think it gave a breakdown of how many of the other babies died of things like infections though? I can't remember. What was really apparent from that report though, was how hopeless the data is - even for those 45 babies, there was heaps of missing data on things like maternal smoking in pregnancy (I guess you could suggest that the 70% of mums who chose not to answer probably had smoked in pregnancy though?). And it occurred to me that I've never registered whether or not I co-sleep DD, and tbh, although I have sometimes, if asked, I'd probably say no I don't because more often that not I don't. So even if they could say ok, of the SIDS deaths, x were in cots and x were co-sleeping; how will they no what proportion that is without asking every parent of a baby born this year if they co-sleep? And even then, how reliable would their responses be? Thesaff, it also seemed that apparently it can be quite difficult to distinguish between babies where the trigger for stopping breathing was momentary covering of the airway/weight on their chest etc due to some hazard of co-sleeping vs it just happening spontaneously so often it's hard to know whether the baby would have died if in the cot or not. I will say though, that spending the evening reading articles about SIDS is a really bad idea for a pregnant woman with a sleeping toddler in the next room! Talk about making me nervous for both of them 
Personally, at this stage I'm leaning towards using a sidecar approach if we decide co-sleeping is the right option for this baby (which we won't know till we meet it). After reading the article about head tilting, I'm also thinking I'll get a stiffener for the hammock I've bought cos I imagine the same thing could happen in there. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 26 June 2011 at 7:37pm
Oh awesome Freckle, thanks! I'll look it up in the library at work tomorrow, but yay for something with real stats in it! If I follow it through citing articles etc I should find anything more recent too 
So it basically says as long as you don't do any of the things you shouldn't anyway, it's all good. That's reassuring. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: phantom_1
Date Posted: 27 June 2011 at 1:07pm
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Hi Ladies,
Interesting reading. We have co-slept with our little girl (8months) for the whole time. She just wouldn't sleep in her own bed. I find that I am very aware of her & think I can tune in to her needs quicker. But then I am a non drinker & non smoker and have been my whole life. Its nice to know it's more widely practised than advertised (ie we don't tell plunket). |
Posted By: JadeC
Date Posted: 27 June 2011 at 9:58pm
It's funny how quickly they develop personalities! DS has only *just* consented to sleep with us, at 10 months! He hated it for SO long. ------------- http://pregnancy.baby-gaga.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: whitewave
Date Posted: 27 June 2011 at 10:28pm
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T-Rex, another option for co-sleeping with newborns is to do something similar to what we did - Campbell slept in his carrycot at the top of the middle of the bed, so had his own sleeping space but was within my reach. So the risks of having his neck tilted were the same as if he was sleeping in his cot, and we didn't have to worry about our blankets riding up and covering his head. He still co-sleeps with us now, in between me and DH, and it works really well for us.
I really hate reading about babies dying because of drunk parents co-sleeping, it really does give co-sleeping an undeserved bad name, when so many parents do it properly and safely. |
Posted By: luvmylittlies
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 9:13am
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Yeah Whitwave I can imagine that peeving you (about the negative co-sleeping image). I feel the same about dog attacks and Staffies which are actually a breed that's renowned for being good with kids. Oops, sorry, accidental threadjack...back to he point....umm...Phantom it does seem more common once you're talking about it. I think 4 of the ladies in my last due date thread co-slept. And certainly so many of us do when the little ones are sick. For me it really was that I'm a real wriggler in bed so I just can't relax with my baby in bed for fear I'll bounce her out. But also she was never a cuddly baby and always wanted her own space (didn't like being swaddled etc). With my daughter I had the bassinet butted up to my side of the bed so I was hoping that had the best of both worlds. Once she started sleeping right through the night (and she did from very early) I used to miss her and I secretly hoped for her to have an unsettled night so I could cuddle up with her in the comfy recliner. ------------- Adoring Mum to Talisin 8/9/11 and Kiara 18/01/10 |
Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 10:37am
So true about babies having their own personalities! Jacob would NOT - and still won't - go to sleep in bed or cuddled up to us. DH jokes that he takes after me in that respect (I like my space in bed too  )-------------
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Posted By: Plushie
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 1:09pm
| DS won't co-sleep either, it makes me sad! He is less then 1m away from me in his cot but i really want to snuggle with him!! But no go. |
Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 7:54pm
Heh, yeah, I'm only researching options at this point, cos in the end it's up to the baby really 
Turns out that once I get into the medical library at work, there are plenty of papers on it, most of which say either no increase in risk provided you do it safely, and some of which say no real information available. So I'll do it if it seems right, but probably use the cot as a sidecar initially at least. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 7:56pm
Oh, one thing I read though, that made me a bit  was that the threshold for maternal exhaustion in a couple of papers I read was that the baby had slept a 5-hour stretch the previous night or not. Errr... it would seem that I STILL fail that - with an 18-month-old, although it does happen sometimes now
I definitely don't feel exhausted though - I've become pretty tough after DD's first year ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: Hopes
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 8:30pm
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Ha! I still dream about a five-hour stretch too Although I do feel exausted, you must be more used to it or tougher than me -------------
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Posted By: Emmecat
Date Posted: 28 June 2011 at 9:24pm
I hear ya on the maternal exhaustion! *weak laugh* Think that's mainly from having two though lol  ------------- http://lilypie.com" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Bobchannz
Date Posted: 29 June 2011 at 3:22pm
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I think this website will help provide you with NZ based information and stats.
http://www.changeforourchildren.co.nz/home - Change for our children One interesting thing I learnt from a SUDI presentation was that it was not helpful comparing co-sleeping situations here and overseas. It may be traditional to co-sleep in some countries - but perhaps their sleeping environment is different to ours? I know in Japan for example people frequently sleep on firm mats on the floor (not soft squidgy dust filled mattresses). Or in warmer countries you may have a slightly more open/ fresh air environment and have thin mattresses on the floor (just some examples). So co-sleeping may be safer in those environments, but when you come to NZ with our damp homes, beds high off the floor and (lets face it) old mattresses then you are really talking about a different thing all together. I'm not comfortable with co-sleeping. Being overweight I don't meet the guidelines but when one of the guidelines is that you shouldn't be 'overtired' then for me it would not have been safe to co-sleep with my daughter until this week. I've been tired since she was born, and she is only now sleeping through. Breastfeeding has gone very well with her sleeping peacefully in her cot, on her new mattress, tucked in with feet at the bottom of the cot and using only natural fibres on the bed. And I sleep better by myself too! All good here. ------------- www.makedomum.blogspot.co.nz |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 29 June 2011 at 7:20pm
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Haha I have gotten a 5 hour stretch the last two nights, isn't it amazing :-) I am starting to think my LO will just never sleep through the night. I wonder if he will still need mummy's help when he is a teenager?
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Posted By: T_Rex
Date Posted: 29 June 2011 at 8:06pm
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Good to hear you've got a decent sleep finally 1st-time (yes, I'm sad enough to consider 5 hours decent too!). Just to teach me not to gloat about feeling exhausted, we had another 1.5 hour session in the middle of the night last night so I'm back to shattered today. Sigh.
Thanks for that link Bobchannz, off to check it out now. ------------- http://lilypie.com"> http://lilypie.com">
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Posted By: jano1
Date Posted: 30 June 2011 at 7:14am
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T rex you might be interested in making one of these http://www.changeforourchildren.co.nz/safe_start_programme/pepi-pod -
They make co- sleeping safe and comfortable. I'm going to make one up for bubs who is due in September as I liked co-sleeping with DD but was so paranoid. |
Posted By: jano1
Date Posted: 30 June 2011 at 7:15am
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http://www.changeforourchildren.co.nz/safe_start_programme/pepi-pod
Not sure why that didn't link |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 30 June 2011 at 7:15pm
| Wow they look soooo good Jano1! How would you make one??? |
Posted By: 1st_Time_Preggies
Date Posted: 30 June 2011 at 7:17pm
| Forget I asked, I just looked further on the website and they have instructions! |
Posted By: JadeC
Date Posted: 30 June 2011 at 9:19pm
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Those are so cute, and such a good idea! Esp for the ChCh mums, I would want DS with me 24/7 after that! ------------- http://pregnancy.baby-gaga.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Bobchannz
Date Posted: 01 July 2011 at 3:35pm
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There was a big fundraiser/ sewathon to make those for mums and babies after the earthquake. It was such a great, practical thing for people to do. I think I would have been to freaked in the days after the earthquake to have the baby in another room, this would have been a great option. ------------- www.makedomum.blogspot.co.nz |
Posted By: whitewave
Date Posted: 04 July 2011 at 11:00pm
| Jano, that is just what I want for baby no. 2! Its similar to what I was talking about with Campbell's carrycot, except his has a zip-over top. With this bubba due in January, I want something more open so I can just have a single blanket over top if need be. This Pepi pod looks awesome! I'll have to have a go at making one too. |