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Jennz
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Topic: Non-denominational school- hymns? Posted: 10 September 2008 at 11:37pm |
Right, first things first, I really don't want to get into a debate about religion- this is purely asking for peoples opinions about what I should do with a schooling situation.
We are Atheists and are quite strong in our 'beliefs' so we specifically sought out a private school for our girls that was non-denominational. There have been a few instances of religious teachings since Charlotte has been going- at the Christmas concert they did a lot of Christianity based songs and prayers, also at harvest, but they have also celebrated other religious events throughout the year (Chinese new year etc). It probably has been a little bias towards Christianity but as the country we live in is mainly Christian we weren't too worried.
Now, the reason for my concern is that she has just started Reception and we got the new daily timetable home and every Monday for 30 mins they have Hymn practice. As a non denominational school it really irks me that they have a weekly focus on something that is religious based.
So coming from my point of view, what would you guys do?
I was thinking about going in and having a word with the head mistress- my only worry is that if she does get taken out to do something alternative then she'll just see it as missing out on singing  I don't know if they are doing religious teachings around it or if it is just 'singing'.
I HATE going in to see the head mistress- it always either make me feel like I'm being naughty or one of those whiny Mums who moans about ridiculous things (probably because its true!). Anyway- I just want to know if you guys think I should get over it- or call them up on it because its not doing what it says on the box!
ETA: Just wanted to clarify we are perfectly fine with religious teaching around religious events like Christmas etc- we want them to learn about lots of different religions and are happy for them to be exposed to these at school. What concerns us is them concentrating on one religion on a weekly basis.
Edited by Jennz
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Jen, Charlotte 7 & Kate 3
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caliandjack
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:58am |
Hymns are songs, and usually involve just singing. If you are worried you could always ask to see what songs they are singing.
Find out what it is all about and then decide if 'hymns' aren't for you.
At first I looked at the title of this thread and thought how can you have hymns at a non-denominational school.
But if the school is founded on christian ideals then there is bound to be singing about Jesus and such.
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  [/url] Angel June 2012
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fire_engine
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 8:36am |
Non-denominational doesn't mean that it's not a Christian or religious based school and if I heard it was non-denom, I would assume it had some links with Christianity, so wouldn't be surprised by the hymns.
I know that in NZ, parents have the right to remove their children from the classroom if there is religious education happening - I would assume in the UK they have a similar thing. I agree with Fleury - find out what it's about (e.g. just songs or if religious ed as well) and then make a decision.
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arohanui
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 8:56am |
Yeah, I think hymns are fairly common place in England just for 'singing time' at school. I'd say all they're doing is probably singing. But yeah agree with the others, maybe worth just finding out if they teach as well. Even talk with your daughter about it (not in a negative way, just chatting) or just ask her classroom teacher. Then if you find out she is being taught something you're not comfortable with, it would be good to make an appointment to see the head mistress.
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fattartsrock
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:09am |
Flissty wrote:
Non-denominational doesn't mean that it's not a Christian or religious based school and if I heard it was non-denom, I would assume it had some links with Christianity, so wouldn't be surprised by the hymns.
I know that in NZ, parents have the right to remove their children from the classroom if there is religious education happening - I would assume in the UK they have a similar thing. I agree with Fleury - find out what it's about (e.g. just songs or if religious ed as well) and then make a decision. |
Me to, I agree.
To be frank, and please don't take offence to this, it probably isn't going to do her any harm, or brainwash her or anything! She sounds very well rounded, so with what beliefs you have at home, I am sure she will be fine!
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MissAngel
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:12am |
My parents didnt want me taking part in the christian stuff at school. I didnt mind, I always thought it was boring anyway. They had a special class for kids who's parents didnt want them there - we did fun stuff outside / in the art room instead of bible studies :) I hope you can sort something out - at that age I personally wouldnt worry about it, but if you're that concerned, yea, find out about it!
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meow
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:38am |
If it's just hymns then she should be fine - she is so young that she won't think anything about it other than that she's singing.
If they are teaching her about events in the bible, that's another story.
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JD
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:40am |
Is that not just like choir in a normal state school?
is half an hour a week really that big of a deal? (I don't mean that in a nasty way).
Oh, and I am a Christian, and the only time I have ever sung a hymn was at my Catholic grandfathers funeral....so IMO its not really a "Christian" practice....more of a Catholic or Anlican (sp?) practice. I would say a hymn covers a whole range of denomonations.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it at this point. She is still little and probably enjoys the singing without giving to much thought to what they are singing about.
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catisla
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:56am |
I'm an atheist, raised by atheist parents, and my mum encouraged me to take part in school carol concerts etc - the way i see it is that you are being taught traditional songs - almost everyone must know the words to the popular carols and hymns and it is good to be able to join in
when i was young i just took them as "songs" without any thought to any deeper "meaning".
If i were in your position i would allow your daughter to join in, but (and i'm not sure how old she is) have your own discussion with her about the meaning behind the singing to ensure she is not being taught that these songs represent anything other than some people's beliefs and not anything that actually happened.
ETA - just noticed your daughter's age on your ticker! I played Mary in the nativity play at playgroup at this age and i don't remember it having any impact on me religiously (too interested in santa waiting off-stage!).
Edited by Susiec
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cuppatea
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:09am |
I thought in the UK they had banned all kinds of hymns etc from schools? I know we sung them at primary as part of the weekly assembly but i thought they had all been stopped since then. I also remember a girl who use to have to leave that part of assembly because of her religious beliefs (or more her parents as she probably didn't have any at age 5) and I always felt sorry for her as she missed out on a lot and was made to seem different to everyone else because of it.
I'm athiest by the way so it never made a difference to me in that respect.
Perhaps just ask them what they will be singing, will it only be christian hymns or will it be songs from other religions as well.
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cuppatea
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 1:01pm |
Just thought that perhaps that banning of religion only happened in public schools. I know by the time I went to secondary school they couldn't mention anything religious in anyway except in the religious education class and then it was to teach about all religions. But prayers etc at assembly were totally banned.
I was also thinking that maybe you just need to decide where you draw the line with your beliefs and that might help you make the decision. For example we are atheist but we still celebrate xmas, I just buy cards that aren't too christian themed etc but you could say that we shouldn't celebrate it at all if we don't believe in god. I also decided against a certain daycare for Spencer purely because it was christian based as I wasn't happy with them saying prayers before lunch etc, but if the daycare did christmas carols and made christmas decorations (just as an example) then that wouldnt' bother me, like it also wouldn't bother me if they celebrated other holidays like the chinese new year etc and made things for them.
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caliandjack
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 6:03pm |
I just my 2 cents worth, I was raised Catholic and went to catholic school where we sung hymns every assembly and were taught religious education. I am now a confirmed agnostic. Which goes to show children don't always follow their parents beliefs.
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  [/url] Angel June 2012
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AliaDawn
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:28pm |
I was removed from RE at school - I think it's a silly name for it anyway, it was all christian stuff, so it should at least be called "Christian Education" not "Religious Education" I couldn't stand it anyway. Having me there would have just bothered the class - I was a rude little twerp when it came to christianity, telling off people for worshipping an imaginary blue man in the sky (at like 6-7)
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kiwisj
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:40pm |
I went to an Anglican school up till Year 8 and we sang hymns every morning. At age 5/6/7 I wouldn't have had much of a clue that they had a "religious" meaning although I did know "who Jesus was" because we had weekly RE lessons.
We had a boy in our class for quite a few years whose parents removed him from the RE classes. All I remember about him was that he was "different" from the rest of us. It was a totally different situation but in a case like his, why put him in a christian school when they felt so strongly about it?
My Dad is atheist and my Mum is a non-practising Catholic. They sent me to a faith-based school because they liked the traditional aspects of the school as opposed to having any strong links to the church.
If I were you, I would let your daughter be a part of the hymn practises because in all likelihood she probably does see it as "just singing." Perhaps you could have a chat with her class teacher (or head the school head) and ask them what exactly they involve and also what they mean by non-denominational as there *could* be other things that come up that you're going to have to decide on later as well..?
I agree that in NZ I would assume that non-denominational didn't necessarily mean not Christian, but more that it wasn't a particular denomination of Christianity eg Catholic/Anglican/Methodist etc and that they accept students from any church/parish.
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katie1
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 7:43pm |
I personally wouldn't make any big deal of it.
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emz
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 8:48pm |
DH and I are atheist and we will be bringing Jack up as such until he is at an age to make up his own mind.
So we have decided that most likely he will not take part in RE classes as, being a teacher, I know exactly what goes on and yes it is all Christian. I would be all for it if it covered most of the main religions, that would be awesome.
But: if it came to singing, my thoughts would initially be, OK what are they aiming to sing? Then, are there any other teachings alongside the singing that I don't believe in? If it all checks out and doesn't go against her upbringing, then I can't see the harm. Also if it is the only singing time it might be fun for her. I had no beliefs at that age but yes as parents we have to make these hard decisions for our kids. Oh, what I have to look forward to in years to come
I would see non-denominational as encompassing Christianity, but all forms of it, just like non-denom churches do. Most private schools have some sort of faith-based history to them, whereas like cuppatea said it's illegal to have prayers/hymns etc taught at many state schools in NZ and overseas without prior consent from the parents.
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Jennz
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 9:16pm |
Thanks for the feedback
In this particular schools case they say that they are non-denominational because they have a Christian ethos but don't do any religious teachings within the school. We were fine with the Christian ethos as I believe they are pretty good guidelines to live by- and they have a 'Worship curriculum' within their school information which we have read and it is very broad- no mention of 'God' or any particular religious content, mainly respecting others and their beliefs etc. Those we were fine with- and it backs up what we teach at home.
Teaching hymns on a weekly basis didn't go with the impression we had. Plus, they do singing and music twice a week already so it just seems a little superfluous.
Meeting up with the headmistress soon so will update
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Peanut
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Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:17pm |
Interesting discussion... I teach at a state boys school, which is not religious based, and we sing a hymn at assembly every Tues and Thurs...we don;t have parents permission for that!
I teach social studies and we end up teaching about most religions within that. We also don't have parents permission for that....
hmmmm..........
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caliandjack
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Posted: 12 September 2008 at 8:03am |
I went to Catholic school with a Nun as our headmistress and as teachers. We did learn about the other main religions of Islam and Judaism as part of RE studies, we also learnt about the history of the church. The never really pushed religion, probably cause everyone there was already Catholic.
We would have Mass for Ash Wednesday, and we did passion plays and nativity plays at Easter and Christmas. IMO its better than Santa and the Easter Bunny
The rest of our schooling was normal curriculum and very broad.
Thought I would highlight that many religious schools don't push the religious aspect.
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  [/url] Angel June 2012
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