A new debate. Religion.

Not looking for a hard out argument, but a couple of threads got me thinking....so I've got LOTS of questions cos Im curious to see how people think or feel.

I always wonder what it is about religion in general that people take "offence" to?
I don't mean the different types of beliefs, either, I mean "on the whole".

Why wouldn't you go to a music session or something similar cos it was run in or by a church group? What makes those families different?

Do you think that they somehow judge your existence? Is that what makes you uncomfortable?

Would you come to my house for a play date or heaven forbid a few drinks AFTER you found out I'm a practicing Catholic or would that put you off? And why? How does that make ME different? ( - cos I am still the hard core rock and roll chick I was before I found my peace! and my husband is so not keen on or in any way involved with the church, lol)

I realise, reading a couple of threads in here today that for lots of you its about "covering all bases" IE different beliefs and not aliging to one particular faith or another.

..says she married to an athiest and who has just been confimed into the catholic church and sends kids to catholic pre school and school...

Someone said "there are worse things your kids could do" and yes, I whole heartedly agree with this, having had the whole drugs/sex/booze/violence experience with the teen here.

What is it about religion that scares you? And why wouldn't you be keen for your kids to be interested or experimenting?

Personally, we haven't baptised the kids, mainly cos my husband said hell NO!, however I hope that one day they will come to it on their own, of their choosing, and I wouldn't be upset or put out if they didn't, each to their own and all that.

And last word for me on the RE/School?Pre school thing... we have a number of muslim kids at our pre school, so our kids have a good idea about what muslims believe and those children participate in everything bar songs for and about Jesus, we also have some seventh day adventists and some other hard core "new wave" churchy people too, and whenever there is a "religious holiday" we talk about what everyone believes not just the good old Catholics!

Discuss.

I wondered the same about the music thread too... We don't go to church and are not involved in any particular religion. However, I would have no problem at all my kids being exposed to religion through activities. I am envious of people who can believe so fully in whatever God it maybe. I think it would be a far nicer way too live. I often wonder how people come to believe so strongly? whether it is through their upbringing or life events that lead to it...

fattartsrock wrote: Would you come to my house for a play date or heaven forbid a few drinks AFTER you found out I'm a practicing Catholic or would that put you off? And why? How does that make ME different? ( - cos I am still the hard core rock and roll chick I was before I found my peace! and my husband is so not keen on or in any way involved with the church, lol)

what you drink? ha ha yip sure would. I got talking to a lady about my pram & we became great friends & she told me she was a Christian after a few coffee morning & she is the coolest chick ever, so I would not let something like that stop me from making great friends.

If I said we were all going to church DH would be quite happy even tho he was not brought up very religious.

Great idea for a thread, interested to read everyones replies. I'm a catholic too and my faith is very important to me, it shapes my life. I was not brought up Catholic, I chose it for myself, but I was exposed to the Anglican church when I was little (baptised and some sunday school).

But I do tend to keep it to myself, other than around my family and good friends. This is mainly because I know people judge others based on religion, and I feel like we as a family already are judged being that we are both young (23-24) and have two children...I worry that my daughter is looked at differently because all of the other mums at kindy are around 35 plus and all can relate quite well to each other. I guess I feel like my age/situation is a barrier already and I dont want to throw up another one by saying im a catholic!

Writing that made me feel really bad, you should be proud of your religion and share it, and I want to, but I dont want to be known as the crazy religious one. I have to admit, in some ways I would love to preach to people, but I wouldn't DREAM of it, because people react so strongly to religion I know it wouldnt go well!! And I would never want to make someone feel like I was trying to push something on them.

I understand that to others it may seem like there are a lot of different religions who all think they are right, but I am quite into research, so I involved a lot of that, and then I made the decision that felt right to me.

Both my girls are baptised, we go to church on sundays, we pray together at home, their future school is catholic, but yes, it is up to them as they grow up to make their decision to stay with the faith that we have brought them up in, or to go elsewhere. I think it is appropriate to consider them catholic children as our 4 year old understands a lot and loves church and it forms part of her life everyday.

Good topic to start on Mission Sunday Annie

I’d like to add something on to your OP.  The statement I hear from lapsed Christians most regularly is "I'm not going to take my child to church etc as my child can choose what they want to believe when they grow up" which on the surface appears to be a great idea but I find it a very curious thing to say IMHO it's much like saying "I'm not going to teach my child English because they might want to speak French when they grow up".

 

Susiec wrote: I do dislike seeing children described as 'christian', 'muslim' etc based on their parents religion. I deeply believe it is an individual choice and not something that can be passed down to your children..

 

Interesting you say that Susie, I will try and explain my pov. 

My children are both Catholic, they were baptised into the faith at 8 wks old and I have a certificate for each to say they're Catholic just as i have a certificate for each which says they're New Zealanders.  When they're older they may decide not to go to church but they will still be Catholic just as they will still be kiwis even if they decide to move overseas.

Baptising a child does not mean you are proclaiming they believe what you believe; it is far deeper and much more significant.  Baptism is one of 7 sacraments of the Catholic faith. 

The traditional definition of a sacrament is this: "A sacrament is a visible sign, instituted by Christ, to give grace." At the risk of over simplifying something that is very complex, we could describe GRACE as God's free gift of Himself as the controlling influence in our life and the decisions we make once we have committed ourselves to Him in faith.  As a baby cannot request baptism their parents will choose it for them, just as you may choose to immunise your child when they are too young to request it themselves.

The sacrament of baptism is not us claiming that our child must believe what we believe, rather it is us requesting God's gift of grace upon our child to help them, guide them and protect them.

Edited by MrsMojo

MyLilSquishy wrote: and just went back to your origianl post lol. Religion doesnt scare me, its just not something I believe in. I'm more of a science chick hehe.

 

Albert Einstein, Nicolaus Copernicus, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendal, Louis Pasteur, Antione Lavoisier, John von Neumann, Enrico Fermi, Erwin Schrodinger, Fred Hoyle, Paul Davies..... I could fill a book with a list of groundbreaking scientists who were also devout believers It's not an exclusive thing.

Oh and you should totally read Richard Dawkins' book 'The God Delusion'. It's a fascinating read. Esp. the part where he compares the likelyhood of God existing to a Boeing 747 being put together by a hurricane swirling through a rubbish heap...or some similar analogy lol.

Emmecat wrote: Oh and you should totally read Richard Dawkins' book 'The God Delusion'. It's a fascinating read. Esp. the part where he compares the likelyhood of God existing to a Boeing 747 being put together by a hurricane swirling through a rubbish heap...or some similar analogy lol.

I thought the 747 comparison was one the religious creationists used to argue against evolution?? will have to go and check my Dawkins books now!

Susiec wrote: I have always understood that unbaptised people will not make it to heaven. What i never understood was how a child who passes before the age of reason could be judged for the choices of its parents. After all, a baby has never had the chance to say it wants to be baptised yet according to the Catholic faith the baby will be condemned to Hell (or purgatory as I think the latest Pope revealed) for eternity. I cannot weigh that up with the notion of a just and loving God.

 

Unfortunately there's all sorts of notions about what Catholics/Christians believe, not all of them are true.

Just because a person isn't baptised doesn't mean they will be excluded from heaven, just as being baptised does not mean you will automatically get into heaven. 

Another analogy for you: I am an NZ citizen but that doesn't mean I have the right to be a free NZer indefinitely.  If I break the laws of the country I forfeit my rights as free person.  On the other hand someone who moves to NZ from another country doesn't automatically become excluded from free society and sent to prison because they don't have a NZ birthright.  Does that make sense?

I'll try to answer your questions as best I can but it's a hard topic (for me) to try and pin down exact feelings and reasonings on. So, I'll start off with the qualifier that I am Atheist and go from there.

fattartsrock wrote: I always wonder what it is about religion in general that people take "offence" to? I don't mean the different types of beliefs, either, I mean "on the whole". Why wouldn't you go to a music session or something similar cos it was run in or by a church group? What makes those families different?

I'm not offended by religion. I would be fine going to things run by a church group as long as there were not a huge amount of references to God, the Bible etc - It's not that I am offended by it, it's that I would feel uncomfortable and a bit like a fraud.

fattartsrock wrote: Do you think that they somehow judge your existence? Is that what makes you uncomfortable?

Nope and Nope.

fattartsrock wrote: Would you come to my house for a play date or heaven forbid a few drinks AFTER you found out I'm a practicing Catholic or would that put you off? And why? How does that make ME different? ( - cos I am still the hard core rock and roll chick I was before I found my peace! and my husband is so not keen on or in any way involved with the church, lol)

Yep, if I was invited Just because I'm Atheist doesn't mean I mingle only with Atheists! And obviously just because you are Catholic does not mean you mingle only with Catholics (seeing as your Husband is not a Catholic I guess thats kinda impossible!)

fattartsrock wrote: I realise, reading a couple of threads in here today that for lots of you its about "covering all bases" IE different beliefs and not aliging to one particular faith or another.

Of course, it is impossible to teach thoroughly about all religions as there are just far far too many of them. But having a broad understanding of at least a few of the different types is great IMO (whether you are assigned to one faith or are not religious) as it helps promote tolerance. Even if you do not agree with their views or even entirely understand where they are coming from - even having that tiny bit of understanding is better than nothing or misunderstanding completely.

fattartsrock wrote: Someone said "there are worse things your kids could do" and yes, I whole heartedly agree with this, having had the whole drugs/sex/booze/violence experience with the teen here.

Now theres a tagline for you:

Religion: Well, there are worse things.



This quote struck a chord with me in the other thread because it felt as if the poster was dismissing peoples concerns about religion, as in - "What would you rather? Your kid into religion or into drugs and alcohol? It's really not THAT bad and I think you are being a bit silly worrying about it."

You say there could be worse things than kids being into religion - and I say there could be better things that kids could be into than religion.

fattartsrock wrote: What is it about religion that scares you? And why wouldn't you be keen for your kids to be interested or experimenting?

Oh, there is plenty about religion that is scary to me! But then there is plenty about A LOT of things that is scary to me. Setting aside the problems with extremists and the fanatics - I think one of my main problems is that I am one of those "too PC" people everyone loves to hate and for me there are too many messages of intolerance promoted in too many of the religions.

I fully expect my children to go through stages of believing and not believing and experimenting with religion - showing an interest is great IMO and I'll do what I can to facilitate any interest and wouldn't have a problem dropping them off to church or youth groups etc if they wanted to.

fattartsrock wrote: Personally, we haven't baptised the kids, mainly cos my husband said hell NO!, however I hope that one day they will come to it on their own, of their choosing, and I wouldn't be upset or put out if they didn't, each to their own and all that.

Just curious - For those that are part of an organised religion and who are fine with their children choosing their own religions path - I think that is great but isn't it very scary for you? My understanding is that you have to believe in God to go to Heaven - what if your child doesn't end up believing in God? Wouldn't it be terrifying to think they wouldn't end up in Heaven if they died? This is why I try to be as tolerant as I can with religious door knockers and people that stop me on the street and friends and family as much as I would rather they didn't try to convert me - it would suck to be very worried about whether someone you knew was not going to get into Heaven even though they were good, but didn't believe in God at all.

It has always seemed a bit weird to me that you could be a good unbeliever for your whole life and not go to heaven but could be a bad person all your life and repent on your deathbed and get to go to Heaven. Is that right? If not - my apologies

fattartsrock wrote: And last word for me on the RE/School?Pre school thing... we have a number of muslim kids at our pre school, so our kids have a good idea about what muslims believe and those children participate in everything bar songs for and about Jesus, we also have some seventh day adventists and some other hard core "new wave" churchy people too, and whenever there is a "religious holiday" we talk about what everyone believes not just the good old Catholics!

That's great and how I feel it should be - teaching tolerance towards all religions - and everyone!